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Thread: The American Politics thread

  1. #15901
    123/5 Flem274*'s Avatar
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    i don't thnk the new york times or whoever had to work particularly hard to make trumps comments look as bad as possible ausage.

    "ban all da muzlims" "build a wall lel worked for china against da khalasar" and "luv me some putin big strong dictator man" doesn't really need help to look terrible to a sane person, which tbf seem pretty thin on the ground right now.

    sprinkle some "take all the jobs back man we can pretend the post-war era isn't gone forever" over the top and you have the perfect leader for a country where the citizens feel increasingly less relevant on the world stage so elect to invade Sicily to feel better about themselves.
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    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uppercut View Post
    Nobody will ever know, surely? Media coverage often produces unintended consequences. But ultimately we do still want a free press, and we definitely want them to make some noise when there's a 10% nuclear war risk.
    We can never quantify a great deal of things we offer opinions on in threads like these. My view is that hyperbolic reporting has a negative effect on society which is often waved away because of how important the role of a well functioning media is to us. We don't have that at the moment and it's not correct to put all the blame on the Breitbarts and Infowars out there.

    I'd never suggest the media should be state run. That would be insane. What we need is people to choose to consume better content. "How" is an impossible question but IMO the only way one person can help is by making arguments like the ones I'm making and convincing as many people there's a need to expect better.
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  3. #15903
    Cricketer Of The Year Ausage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    i don't thnk the new york times or whoever had to work particularly hard to make trumps comments look as bad as possible ausage.

    "ban all da muzlims" "build a wall lel worked for china against da khalasar" and "luv me some putin big strong dictator man" doesn't really need help to look terrible to a sane person, which tbf seem pretty thin on the ground right now.

    sprinkle some "take all the jobs back man we can pretend the post-war era isn't gone forever" over the top and you have the perfect leader for a country where the citizens feel increasingly less relevant on the world stage so elect to invade Sicily to feel better about themselves.
    There's been a ton of debate about the media's coverage of Trump in the thread already. Needless to say I think that your characterizations of his positions are the kind of hyperbolic overreactions I'm talking about. Banning travelers from a number of countries (including those with Green cards) is bad enough without ramping it up a notch to "banning all Muslims". Proposing an expensive wall that will do next to nothing to solve an immigration problem is bad enough without going to "HE SAID ALL MEXICANS ARE RAPISTS" (I know you didn't argue that here btw). Softening rhetoric on Russia isn't even a right/wrong issue, but instead of debating the merits of such a strategy we get "He's a Russian plant who's in the pay of Putin".
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  4. #15904
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Uppercut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausage View Post
    We can never quantify a great deal of things we offer opinions on in threads like these. My view is that hyperbolic reporting has a negative effect on society which is often waved away because of how important the role of a well functioning media is to us. We don't have that at the moment and it's not correct to put all the blame on the Breitbarts and Infowars out there.

    I'd never suggest the media should be state run. That would be insane. What we need is people to choose to consume better content. "How" is an impossible question but IMO the only way one person can help is by making arguments like the ones I'm making and convincing as many people there's a need to expect better.
    I think you're mostly right. I almost never read the NYT. I think it has a lot of pieces that are well-written and argued but are, nevertheless, bollocks. When it fails on its own terms, as it often does, it makes no visible effort to institutionally change in order to avoid a repeat. It's basically the news branch of crap-white-liberal-America, like Hollywood and Saturday Night Live. I don't read much WaPo either. It shares a lot of the same flaws but its investigative journalism alone is good enough to justify its existence. CNN and MSNBC are unwatchable bollocks.

    Nevertheless this media establishment is much better than Breitbart, Infowars, or Fox News, for the same reason that the US is better than Russia: an institution that holds itself to a high moral standard is better than one that doesn't, even when it often fails to meet that moral standard.
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  5. #15905
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    It varies with NYT tbf. Rukmini Callimachi's work, for example, almost singlehandedly justifies a subscription cost; easily the best mainstream journalist on ISIS/Islamist terror that I've read semi-regularly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausage View Post
    Not trying to sidestep anything. I think the worst examples of media bias from these outlets occurred in the leadup to the election. You asked me a question with a narrow definition and I expanded on it.
    not really, actually the media has been much more strongly biased against trump (not for dems unless you can show me where there has been significantly more favorable coverage for them) after the election...in the lead-up to the election, most decent news outlets tried to be as even-handed as possible...and tried to draw what for me was a clear false equivalency between the two candidates...in fact i would say the media played a huge role in clinton losing the election in their attempts to be "fair"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ausage View Post
    Cmon man, that wasn't his whole post. Do we really have to do this?
    that was the crux of his point in that post, what he was offering as proof of his assertion...i just felt like you were trying to put a positive spin on what you couldn't have failed to notice was essentially a ridiculous conclusion...
    Last edited by Anil; 21-03-2017 at 09:03 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anil View Post
    not really, actually the media has been much more strongly biased against trump (not for dems unless you can show me where there has been significantly more favorable coverage for them) after the election...in the lead-up to the election, most decent news outlets tried to be as even-handed as possible...and tried to draw what for me was a clear false equivalency between the two candidates...in fact i would say the media played a huge role in clinton losing the election in their attempts to be "fair"...



    that was the crux of his point in that post, what he was offering as proof of his assertion...i just felt like you were trying to put a positive spin on what you couldn't have failed to notice was essentially a ridiculous conclusion...
    It's not for the media to decide who is, and who isn't, the best candidate - that is up to the voter.

    The media's job is merely to present facts in a way that is as dispassionate as possible. Obviously editorials and opinion pieces are allowed to use some hyperbole to get their point across, but neither editorials or opinion pieces should use language that is 'over the top'.

    Unfortunately, if you look at the headlines used by the Washington Post they are consistently shrill and 'over the top'. What this does is a create a sense of crisis when there is no crisis. This 'false crisis' might be good for selling newspapers and advertising, but it is not good for stable or measured governence. Not for the Republicans and not for the Democrats.

    Now it maybe that Trump and the Russians were colluding during the last election, but until that allegation has been proven definitively there is no point hammering the frontpage every other day with gossip or some sensational headline - sensational headlines that ironically sound just as 'insane' as Trump's tweets.

    (Anyway, I'm off to read the BBC news because it doesn't appear mad)
    Last edited by watson; 21-03-2017 at 10:48 PM.

  8. #15908
    123/5 Flem274*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausage View Post
    There's been a ton of debate about the media's coverage of Trump in the thread already. Needless to say I think that your characterizations of his positions are the kind of hyperbolic overreactions I'm talking about. Banning travelers from a number of countries (including those with Green cards) is bad enough without ramping it up a notch to "banning all Muslims". Proposing an expensive wall that will do next to nothing to solve an immigration problem is bad enough without going to "HE SAID ALL MEXICANS ARE RAPISTS" (I know you didn't argue that here btw). Softening rhetoric on Russia isn't even a right/wrong issue, but instead of debating the merits of such a strategy we get "He's a Russian plant who's in the pay of Putin".
    mate im just quoting the bloke here, nothing more nothing less. no hysteria here - i'm as far away from the idiot as can be

    i don't mind a ruthless pragmatist of a leader who will ruffle the feathers of the fluffy. I'm quite partial to them in fact. Even better if they're ruthless but pull the wool over the eyes of the fluffy types (Obama say hello). Trump's just an offensive idiot though, which you can see in his quotes and in his actions. Worse, he has relatively intelligent people around him using him to force their fringe right agendas on America.

    We're kind of at the point here where everyone has to choose between blaming the media, the SJWs or whichever group grinds your (generic your) gears for America's woes and pretend Trump is only a reaction to them, or accept we have elected the sort of bloke you see rising to power at the end of an empire. There's a myriad of reasons beyond "RACIST!!!" why that's happened, and a lot of them are personal anecdotes from voters, and none of them are particularly progressive in the "moving society forward" sense rather than political group sense.
    Last edited by Flem274*; 21-03-2017 at 10:21 PM.

  9. #15909
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    mate im just quoting the bloke here, nothing more nothing less. no hysteria here - i'm as far away from the idiot as can be

    i don't mind a ruthless pragmatist of a leader who will ruffle the feathers of the fluffy. I'm quite partial to them in fact. Even better if they're ruthless but pull the wool over the eyes of the fluffy types (Obama say hello). Trump's just an offensive idiot though, which you can see in his quotes and in his actions. Worse, he has relatively intelligent people around him using him to force their fringe right agendas on America.

    We're kind of at the point here where everyone has to choose between blaming the media, the SJWs or whichever group grinds your (generic your) gears for America's woes and pretend Trump is only a reaction to them, or accept we have elected the sort of bloke you see rising to power at the end of an empire. There's a myriad of reasons beyond "RACIST!!!" why that's happened, and a lot of them are personal anecdotes from voters, and none of them are particularly progressive in the "moving society forward" sense rather than political group sense.
    But Trump's words often do mimic reality - which is why he gains so much traction politically.

    For example;

    Thank you. It’s true, and these are the best and the finest. When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.

    9 Outrageous Things Donald Trump Has Said About Latinos

    Texas Criminal Alien Arrest Data

    According to DHS status indicators, over 215,000 criminal aliens have been booked into local Texas jails between June 1, 2011 and February 28, 2017. During their criminal careers, these criminal aliens were charged with more than 566,000 criminal offenses. Those arrests include 1,162 homicide charges; 68,151 assault charges; 16,678 burglary charges; 68,102 drug charges; 687 kidnapping charges; 40,465 theft charges; 44,626 obstructing police charges; 3,768 robbery charges; 6,098 sexual assault charges; and 8,596 weapons charges. Of the total criminal aliens arrested in that timeframe, over 143,000 or 66% were identified by DHS status as being in the US illegally at the time of their last arrest.

    According to DPS criminal history records, those criminal charges have thus far resulted in over 257,000 convictions including 476 homicide convictions; 25,519 assault convictions; 8,143 burglary convictions; 33,643 drug convictions; 235 kidnapping convictions; 18,332 theft convictions; 21,910 obstructing police convictions; 1,906 robbery convictions; 2,764 sexual assault convictions; and 3,589 weapons convictions. Of the convictions associated with criminal alien arrests, over 170,000 or 66% are associated with aliens who were identified by DHS status as being in the US illegally at the time of their last arrest.....

    https://www.dps.texas.gov/administra...Statistics.htm

  10. #15910
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Zinzan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    i don't thnk the new york times or whoever had to work particularly hard to make trumps comments look as bad as possible ausage.

    "ban all da muzlims" "build a wall lel worked for china against da khalasar" and "luv me some putin big strong dictator man" doesn't really need help to look terrible to a sane person, which tbf seem pretty thin on the ground right now.

    sprinkle some "take all the jobs back man we can pretend the post-war era isn't gone forever" over the top and you have the perfect leader for a country where the citizens feel increasingly less relevant on the world stage so elect to invade Sicily to feel better about themselves.
    You've kind of disproved your own point by saying he ever said 'Ban all muslims"... This is exactly the sort of mischaracterisation that actually allow crazy old Trump's point about the mainstream media valid to some extent. Seems you yourself might have been fooled by the mainstream media on this one ironically.

    His call for the temporary hold on those selected countries is not something I agree with at all, but it's not a "muslim ban" regardless of how you want to spin it, it's the same 5 or so countries the Obama administration highlighted as 'high risk'.

  11. #15911
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zinzan View Post
    You've kind of disproved your own point by saying he ever said 'Ban all muslims"... This is exactly the sort of mischaracterisation that actually allow crazy old Trump's point about the mainstream media valid to some extent. Seems you yourself might have been fooled by the mainstream media on this one ironically.

    His call for the temporary hold on those selected countries is not something I agree with at all, but it's not a "muslim ban" regardless of how you want to spin it, it's the same 5 or so countries the Obama administration highlighted as 'high risk'.
    Wait, he did explicitly call for a ban on all Muslims travelling to the countries (with, initially, no qualifiers) immediately after San Bernadino.
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  12. #15912
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Zinzan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    Wait, he did explicitly call for a ban on all Muslims travelling to the countries (with, initially, no qualifiers) immediately after San Bernadino.
    "Temporarily", until they can understand what is going on was what he actually said at that time, and that was of course when Obama still had the reigns. I see why "Ban all Muslims" makes a much better headline though.

  13. #15913
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Zinzan's Avatar
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    ^ Just like his speech to announce he was running when he mentioned Mexico aren't sending their best people, specifically talking about some of the illegal immigration and how 'they're rapists' and I guess some of them are good people', and how that suddenly became 'All Mexicans are Rapists".

    I cringed when Trump said that at time, because obviously his choice of words were terrible, but the media purposely continued to report that in a misleading way.

  14. #15914
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zinzan View Post
    "Temporarily", until they can understand what is going on was what he actually said at that time, and that was of course when Obama still had the reigns. I see why "Ban all Muslims" makes a much better headline though.
    Well, yeah, it's still a ban on Muslims. There's no temporal aspect to the word "ban" last I checked.

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    James once banned Brockley from CW for a while because his account had been compromised. He literally banned him totally until we could figure out what was going on.

    It was still a ban.
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