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Thread: The American Politics thread

  1. #15031
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    Do you actually add anything to these discussions? Snide comments and nonsensical tirades...all you need now is a toothbrush moustache.
    I'm just enjoying watching people find their way around these things. It's interesting and amusing. Sorry if I CBF responding to every post and every subset of the debate. What you think of my views is really really important to me. I'll try harder from now on.
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  2. #15032
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uppercut View Post
    It's an anti-injustice movement as much as an anti-killing-of-blacks movement. When cops kill unarmed black people they invariably get away with it.

    I also think there are differences between an arm of the government killing people and private citizens killing people, especially when the former are never punished. Surely no libertarian needs those differences explained.

    Nevertheless it was an interesting post after a fairly long run of shite ones. I would tend to think if the effect of BLM is to make conservatives talk about black on black violence to change the subject, that's no bad thing. One side saying 'stop cops killing blacks' and another saying 'let's solve black on black violence' is a huge improvement on the deafening silence of ten years ago.
    Or indeed the 90s. "Superpredators" etc.
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  3. #15033
    Hall of Fame Member harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    The big reason for crime in all communities has to do with their socio-economic factors. But it's not all to do with slavery. Blacks were of a comparatively higher socio-economic level even in the recent past as they were more likely - even more than white people for a time at the turn of the 20th century - to be from a two parent household. The welfare state has destroyed this culture amongst them and amongst society in general. This is not a race issue.

    The right does want to address these issues, but it involves self-responsibility and less state influence - which has also been subject to demagoguery.
    What do you intend to replace current welfare policies with? As we both know, a certain percentage of the population is always going to be unemployed and a further certain percentage will be poor. What kind of policy would you advice for the incentives to line up and alleviate some of the top problems in the poor black communities?
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  4. #15034
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NZTailender View Post
    Very interesting post Ikki and thanks for your thoughts. Do you honestly really believe that the reason why this isn't getting discussed is because of some left-media denial of fact, and not simply because a lot of people really don't give a **** about misdemeanour homicides? For the same reason no one really talks about increasing drug epidemics in rural white communities as mentioned by Spark previously? The black on black crime/there are worse issue facing the black community aspect only ever seems to come up in counter arguments as opposed to genuine reporting on the subject. But your overall posts seems to reject that the black community should object or protest when black people are unfairly killed by cops in a country that has a long history of abusing black people.

    Also the bolded made me lol, because it sounds like the right wants to simply do nothing.
    The reason is not some conspiracy where all these people gather to manipulate the news. It's that they too are involved in this political game, willingly or otherwise, and have been parroting leftist talking points as well as vilifying the opposition for close to two decades (at least as far as I can comment accurately - I don't doubt media manipulation prior). The US government was caught spending 500 million dollars for fake terrorist videos to influence people - PR, public perception is a huge thing. Especially in the kind of world where we take representations of things (a person being racist, evil or what have you) and use that as an excuse to do truly evil things. But if you repeat a lie often enough, you will fool some people into living with these fake narratives of the world.

    These multi conglomerate news and media organisations are simply a result of a culture that does not honestly investigate issues anymore and simply resorts to demagoguery. The reason it is hard to be a libertarian - or conservative - is not because it doesn't make sense, it is because it requires a bit more than surface level empathy and can easily be vilified for the intellectually lazy. You have to spend your time wading through nonsense just to make a point because as a culture we've built self-censorship into our conversations but it is gone past what is ideal in terms of discussing ideas and is now more about partisan, identity politics.

    The culture of America and much of the world is no longer about self-empowerment and facing unknowns with the best of efforts. It is to create fear out of the unknowns in order to gain the moral upperhand in terms of changing the world through coercion. It is a cognitive dissonance that gets especially violent once confronted with reality. And reality is the thing they fear most of all. If you were to say that the world runs on discrimination and has been part of our existence as human beings you would have that translated as: I'm a racist. But sometimes you need to tell people the truth and encourage their agency as it is the only route to true virtue. Virtue is not being offended at everything on behalf of someone else or voting for someone else to change it, that's just a figment in your mind, it is not real. True virtue is when you look at yourself and realise that nothing gets done unless you help make it happen.

    The bolded is especially illuminating because it represents the store-bought fiction that by doing nothing you are doing something bad. We have to realise the nature of the world and that means not giving a mandate for people to change the world in the image that they think it should be and through force. Anything you want to do with the government can be done in a voluntary scheme with like-minded people. As I often say here: government is just people in a building. They have no special capability. The leftists inherently admit that their plans do not work, that is why they want them at a greater scale because at a smaller scale it's not feasible either and their justification is that we are all, at least, in the same boat - which is why all these ideologies shift towards some form of communism eventually. The American government has spent trillions on welfare and people are worse off, it is time to stop this delusion that the government doing something is beneficial as a priori. As an economic exercise most of these extra functions of government are not sustainable. In the long run, it deeply affects the culture of people into dependency.

    In a general sense it is why a lot of black Americans struggle despite living in a land of opportunity. And while racism will always exist, America is not a country you can simply say is holding them back. Lots of poor people from around the world, such as Asian Americans, come and become part of the top tier of that society. It may have taken them a generation or two but they got there. That is facing the world as it is, instead of creating reasons why you cannot possibly succeed and why the system will always be unfair to you. The left does not care about blacks because instead of treating them as adults with agency, they have turned them into kids that have to be looked after and set up a self-fulfilling system of dependency and a lack of confidence amongst them. People want to take the ills of the world away so bad they delude themselves from reality. We are animals and part of nature, we are going to live and we are going to die and in between we will struggle. The stronger our capacity to overcome these odds, through our own hands, the stronger our sense of worth and the higher the peaks we climb. But if you are brainwashed into believing that success is a myth, you will not move yourself or your people up. Only you or people who truly care enough to walk the walk will change things, people voting for some bureaucrat (and they will be corrupted by power) or some ideal where it does not involve them actually getting their hands dirty do not care and they're living a delusion - with a lot of other people - about their actual virtue in life. They need this fiction so bad they will concoct a world-threatening evil to justify their violence and they will be heroes in their own eyes. This is the true nature of fascism, nazism, communism and those that seek to deny people their individual right to freedom.

    History is/has been one long march towards that aim. It is no coincidence that our beacons for free societies are the ones that have catapulted us as a species and the backward ones are just as obvious in their inherent flaw. It is not a race, gender or sexual orientation thing...it is a matter of ideas that make sense and work, as opposed to emotions and fear of the unknown.
    Last edited by Ikki; 14-02-2017 at 09:00 AM.
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  5. #15035
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    I'm just enjoying watching people find their way around these things. It's interesting and amusing. Sorry if I CBF responding to every post and every subset of the debate. What you think of my views is really really important to me. I'll try harder from now on.
    I don't care what you think or if you agree with me. Stop with the insults, it's pretty obvious.

    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.ag View Post
    What do you intend to replace current welfare policies with? As we both know, a certain percentage of the population is always going to be unemployed and a further certain percentage will be poor. What kind of policy would you advice for the incentives to line up and alleviate some of the top problems in the poor black communities?
    America became the richest country in the history of mankind during a period where it had no income tax and federal funding was <10% of the GDP. It's no surprise that in that same time, as Friedman often pointed out, that most of the eleemosynary institutions began. We will take care of each other, that empathy exists regardless of there being a state...it predates language. It is the same love we have for each other that they use to abuse us into believing the myth, the danger of the 'other'. But deep down, we are all the same, even the people we hate. Every evil in history is rooted once we veer off that reality, that we are all human and we are all flawed.
    Last edited by Ikki; 14-02-2017 at 08:47 AM.

  6. #15036
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Terrible look for Trump, not even near enough clarification.


  7. #15037
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    America became the richest country in the history of mankind during a period where it had no income tax and federal funding was <10% of the GDP. It's no surprise that in that same time, as Friedman often pointed out, that most of the eleemosynary institutions began. We will take care of each other, that empathy exists regardless of there being a state...it predates language. It is the same love we have for each other that they use to abuse us into believing the myth, the danger of the 'other'. But deep down, we are all the same, even the people we hate. Every evil in history is rooted once we veer off that reality, that we are all human and we are all flawed.
    Does the fact that the Scandinavian countries and Australia and so forth are reported as the "happiest" in the world make you temper this opinion somewhat? In distinguishing between high GDP and quality of life, among other things.

    Or do you firmly believe that if US were to go on the non-welfare state route, it would consistently rank higher than these countries in such an index? If not, do you think that is not an important consideration as such?

  8. #15038
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    Even if you for whatever reason agree with all Trump's policies since he ran, you still have to be able to admit this organisation is a shambles. Flynn has obviously fallen on his sword for Trump, but the story isn't going away. Well it might go away if the media get distracted on focus on bollocks like Ivanka's fashion line or some silly Trump tweets, but they shouldn't.

    Conway from all accounts is next to go, been kept out of the loop due to how useless she has been over last few months and Breitbart are producing hit pieces on Preibus

  9. #15039
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    Directly comparing the economies of the 19th century with the service-oriented, post-industrial economies of today is just dumb, come on. Let's not do this.

  10. #15040
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niall View Post
    Even if you for whatever reason agree with all Trump's policies since he ran, you still have to be able to admit this organisation is a shambles. Flynn has obviously fallen on his sword for Trump, but the story isn't going away. Well it might go away if the media get distracted on focus on bollocks like Ivanka's fashion line or some silly Trump tweets, but they shouldn't.

    Conway from all accounts is next to go, been kept out of the loop due to how useless she has been over last few months and Breitbart are producing hit pieces on Preibus
    Yeah I've been very clear on what I think Trump is, but I've always thought that it would be national security issues that would be the biggest problem for him since they are where he has actual power but also where he is woefully unprepared for the challenges that being a global hegemon faces.

  11. #15041
    Hall of Fame Member Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.ag View Post
    Does the fact that the Scandinavian countries and Australia and so forth are reported as the "happiest" in the world make you temper this opinion somewhat? In distinguishing between high GDP and quality of life, among other things.

    Or do you firmly believe that if US were to go on the non-welfare state route, it would consistently rank higher than these countries in such an index? If not, do you think that is not an important consideration as such?
    Giving free **** to people makes them happy?* Who knew Anyway, you're asking the wrong questions. Whether they are happy now or not is not an indicator that they will be happy tomorrow. Subsidisation particularly in the beginning of a program will have a lot of happy people. There were a lot of happy people before the real estate bubble popped because everyone could buy a home and the market had not punished them yet for distorting the natural order of things. These programs are not sustainable in the long term exactly because there is no real mechanism to keep prices low or for high-level innovation. They will subsidise it until they ruin their economy, much like the Americans did with homes.

    Of course it would consistently rank higher, it already did. People flocked all over the world to America before it ever had a welfare state like what we see today. Now immigrants flock, and yes as refugees too, because they know they can abuse the welfare state. Countries like Sweden are also moving away from socialistic style programs and are becoming more free market and the reason they deal with the welfare state better is because they are a relatively small country, with a largely homogenous culture and their country's cultural work ethic has not yet been bred out of existence.

    *Scandinavian countries are amongst the highest suicide rates in the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Niall View Post
    Even if you for whatever reason agree with all Trump's policies since he ran, you still have to be able to admit this organisation is a shambles. Flynn has obviously fallen on his sword for Trump, but the story isn't going away. Well it might go away if the media get distracted on focus on bollocks like Ivanka's fashion line or some silly Trump tweets, but they shouldn't.

    Conway from all accounts is next to go, been kept out of the loop due to how useless she has been over last few months and Breitbart are producing hit pieces on Preibus
    I don't agree all that much with Trump and I think in the long run his economic policies will not help. I was hoping he'd be less of a war hawk too but I guess we'll see. He's a populist and he is the anti-establishment candidate, I guess that's the best you can say about it. But while he hasn't been organised, he's been no more or less organised than the likes of Obama. The difference was that they did not cover him to anywhere near the same level of scrutiny. They're actually making how he shakes hands a news story. It's nuts.

    -----

    Adding this re the last few pages talking about freedom of speech and its limits - NYU students tried to get Gavin McInnes banned, as well as the college Republican group for inviting him. It's cringeworthy and funny at the same time hearing this student defend his position. Unfortunately, people still don't realise that freedom of speech is for things you don't like and find despicable, otherwise there is no need to have it.

    Last edited by Ikki; 14-02-2017 at 11:53 AM.

  12. #15042
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    Giving free **** to people makes them happy?* Who knew Anyway, you're asking the wrong questions. Whether they are happy now or not is not an indicator that they will be happy tomorrow. Subsidisation particularly in the beginning of a program will have a lot of happy people. There were a lot of happy people before the real estate bubble popped because everyone could buy a home and the market had not punished them yet for distorting the natural order of things. These programs are not sustainable in the long term exactly because there is no real mechanism to keep prices low or for high-level innovation. They will subsidise it until they ruin their economy, much like the Americans did with homes.

    Of course it would consistently rank higher, it already did. People flocked all over the world to America before it ever had a welfare state like what we see today. Now immigrants flock, and yes as refugees too, because they know they can abuse the welfare state. Countries like Sweden are also moving away from socialistic style programs and are becoming more free market and the reason they deal with the welfare state better is because they are a relatively small country, with a largely homogenous culture and their country's cultural work ethic has not yet been bred out of existence.

    *Scandinavian countries are amongst the highest suicide rates in the world.
    Given that the modern form of the Nordic universal welfare state began around 60 years back, what do you think are the reasons for the market not yet punishing them?

    If, say, such systems were found to work in small countries with largely homogeneous culture, would you be in opposition to the formation of such small-homogeneous countries worldwide with such systems?

  13. #15043
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    I see HRC has decided on her next career path: professional subtweeter.

  14. #15044
    Norwood's on Fire GIMH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    I see HRC has decided on her next career path: professional subtweeter.
    Will result in a couple of million fewer deaths than her last job I suppose
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  15. #15045
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Zinzan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    Terrible look for Trump, not even near enough clarification.

    Jeez, that's embarrassing.



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