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Thread: The British Politics Thread

  1. #7561
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend fredfertang's Avatar
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    I think a Scottish jury, just like the first English one, would have come to the correct verdict without any trouble

  2. #7562
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    Possibly.

    I think there's around a 0% chance he'd have been found not guilty. And you wouldn't have needed people explaining that this doesn't necessarily mean he is innocent.

    It seems a particularly useful verdict for rape cases where the accused's guilt cannot be proven beyond reasonable doubt. The inference of Evans being found not guilty is that he didn't do it, which could have a knock on effect where women who may have been rape or sexual assault victims do not come forward to report crimes.

  3. #7563
    Spanish_Vicente sledger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Furball View Post
    Possibly.

    I think there's around a 0% chance he'd have been found not guilty. And you wouldn't have needed people explaining that this doesn't necessarily mean he is innocent.

    It seems a particularly useful verdict for rape cases where the accused's guilt cannot be proven beyond reasonable doubt. The inference of Evans being found not guilty is that he didn't do it, which could have a knock on effect where women who may have been rape or sexual assault victims do not come forward to report crimes.
    The notion of courts giving judgments of "case not proven" in criminal cases is a load of bull. They are there to determine whether someone has any criminal liability. This is answerable by way of a yes or no question.

  4. #7564
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    Quote Originally Posted by sledger View Post
    The notion of courts giving judgments of "case not proven" in criminal cases is a load of bull. They are there to determine whether someone has any criminal liability. This is answerable by way of a yes or no question.
    Isn't this exactly what a trial does? The prosecution makes their case against the accused, and if they prove their case beyond reasonable doubt, he gets convicted?


  5. #7565
    Spanish_Vicente sledger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Furball View Post
    Isn't this exactly what a trial does? The prosecution makes their case against the accused, and if they prove their case beyond reasonable doubt, he gets convicted?
    Yeah, and if the case isn't so proved then there is no conviction. Being criminally liable is like being pregnant, you either are or you are not. The courts are there to determine whether someone has criminal liability, not to make proclamations about the nature of their non-guilt.

    edit: Having said that, I wouldn't mind "case not proved" being used as a replacement for "not guilty". I just think it's pointless and wrong to have it as an alternative.
    Last edited by sledger; 19-10-2016 at 03:49 PM.

  6. #7566
    Norwood's on Fire GIMH's Avatar
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    Yeah I agree with the edit. Not proven in itself is fine but three verdicts seems pointless

  7. #7567
    Spanish_Vicente sledger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GIMH View Post
    Yeah I agree with the edit. Not proven in itself is fine but three verdicts seems pointless
    Yeah, as I say, the court is there to answer a very specific question of law. i.e. is the defendant guilty of committing a criminal offence? From a legal perspective this question requires a yes or no answer, anything else is not a question of law, but one of morals, and generally speaking the court has no jurisdiction to consider those.

  8. #7568
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    Both not proven and not guilty mean the same thing for the accused.

    Scots Law requires corroboration of your evidence so it's quite possible for the prosecution to not prove their case enough to secure a conviction. The verdict makes sense when you actually sit on a criminal jury; I did jury duty on an attempted murder case about 10 years ago where both defendants were acquitted; there was a very flimsy case against one defendant who got a not guilty verdict; there was more of a case for the second defendant but the prosecution hadn't proven the case beyond reasonable doubt, so he was found not proven.

  9. #7569
    Spanish_Vicente sledger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Furball View Post
    Both not proven and not guilty mean the same thing for the accused.

    Scots Law requires corroboration of your evidence so it's quite possible for the prosecution to not prove their case enough to secure a conviction. The verdict makes sense when you actually sit on a criminal jury; I did jury duty on an attempted murder case about 10 years ago where both defendants were acquitted; there was a very flimsy case against one defendant who got a not guilty verdict; there was more of a case for the second defendant but the prosecution hadn't proven the case beyond reasonable doubt, so he was found not proven.
    Yeah, so guilty or not guilty in other words. This doesn't explain the need for three different available verdicts.

  10. #7570
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    Quote Originally Posted by sledger View Post
    Yeah, so guilty or not guilty in other words. This doesn't explain the need for three different available verdicts.
    You're being a bit too strictly logical about this, I think. Having three potential verdicts will obviously have an effect on the process by which the jury comes to a decision, even if two are effectively equivalent. Furball is saying that this effect is positive; saying "but two of the verdicts are effectively the same" isn't a counter-argument.
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  11. #7571
    Spanish_Vicente sledger's Avatar
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    See my other posts you haven't quoted for my actual argument.

  12. #7572
    Norwood's on Fire GIMH's Avatar
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    sledger's being a bit catty today isn't he, wac
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  13. #7573
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend fredfertang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GIMH View Post
    sledger's being a bit catty today isn't he, wac
    That's because he spent yesterday picking fights in a meeting and he's rediscovered his taste for trouble - Ravi's store has been warned

  14. #7574
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    Quote Originally Posted by sledger View Post
    The notion of courts giving judgments of "case not proven" in criminal cases is a load of bull. They are there to determine whether someone has any criminal liability. This is answerable by way of a yes or no question.
    Quote Originally Posted by sledger View Post
    Yeah, and if the case isn't so proved then there is no conviction. Being criminally liable is like being pregnant, you either are or you are not. The courts are there to determine whether someone has criminal liability, not to make proclamations about the nature of their non-guilt.

    edit: Having said that, I wouldn't mind "case not proved" being used as a replacement for "not guilty". I just think it's pointless and wrong to have it as an alternative.
    Quote Originally Posted by sledger View Post
    Yeah, as I say, the court is there to answer a very specific question of law. i.e. is the defendant guilty of committing a criminal offence? From a legal perspective this question requires a yes or no answer, anything else is not a question of law, but one of morals, and generally speaking the court has no jurisdiction to consider those.
    Unless I'm missing something, there's no argument here. Furball is saying "The jury fulfils role X better under Y circumstances". You're just repeating "The role of the jury is X".

  15. #7575
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    Quote Originally Posted by sledger View Post
    Yeah, so guilty or not guilty in other words. This doesn't explain the need for three different available verdicts.
    Rape and sexual assault cases are a perfect example of where the third verdict is useful. People too often confuse 'not guilty' with 'innocent.'



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