No Asians ?

[Laurrz]

Originally Posted by Dravid

Won't happen

true

[Great Birtannia]

Originally Posted by Slow Love™

Where Great Birtannia went wrong is probably the overall comment that they bring their best game to the big tourneys, period. 'Cause they have a tendency to look red-hot in the preliminary rounds before they blow it all in a semi or a final (or final series).

My general feeling with the tournaments is that the consistent sides will win through the preliminaries and anything can happen from there. South Africa have disintegrated at the last couple of world cups when it has come to the crunch, the Klusener/Donald mix up and then the misunderstanding of the duckworth lewis charts eliminating them last time around, but after Australia I would say that they are the second most consistent side going around in ODI cricket, afterall they did level Australia's mark of consecutive one day victories last year. The VB series I have just dismissed because of their injuries, they ended up down to a third string bowling attack in the finish.

[Slow Love™]

Originally Posted by Great Birtannia

My general feeling with the tournaments is that the consistent sides will win through the preliminaries and anything can happen from there. South Africa have disintegrated at the last couple of world cups when it has come to the crunch, the Klusener/Donald mix up and then the misunderstanding of the duckworth lewis charts eliminating them last time around, but after Australia I would say that they are the second most consistent side going around in ODI cricket, afterall they did level Australia's mark of consecutive one day victories last year. The VB series I have just dismissed because of their injuries, they ended up down to a third string bowling attack in the finish.

They did it in '96, too. Won every one of their group games extremely comfortably, and then crashed against an inconsistent West Indian side they were heavily backed to beat. Ultimately though, like you said, it's not unpredictable for them to top one of the groups.

Just one small gripe - not to take away from SAF's achievement last year, but they didn't level Australia's ODI record. Reporting was actually really sloppy on this, and many journos seemed to think they hit 20 victories in a row, and only just missed out on the record after being beaten by India. But in fact there was a tie and two no-results in the streak, which was more an unbeaten streak, if you like. I think they got 13 wins on the trot all up.

[tooextracool]

Originally Posted by Slow Love™

They did it in '96, too. Won every one of their group games extremely comfortably, and then crashed against an inconsistent West Indian side they were heavily backed to beat. Ultimately though, like you said, it's not unpredictable for them to top one of the groups.

SA were clearly the best team in both the 96 and 99 world cups and had the best group of players on the field. They really should have won both world cups if it werent for their choking in the big games. I guess that was one of the disadvantages of the 96 wc format, the knockout stages happened way too early, and you really only needed one bad day to lose to a team that was significantly worse than you. As such in 2003, i dont think anyone could complain about SA not going through, they didnt really deserve to duckworth lewis or not.

[R_D]

Pakistan had an excellent team in 99 as well and probaly along with SA the best 2 teams.
Pakistan's bowling attack was really good. The 2 W's, Shoaib and Saqlain and Razzaq was pretty good bowler back than.
They probaly should've won that world cup but like SA choked at the big stage.

[Dydl]

Originally Posted by Laurrz

New Zealand vs Australia
West Indies vs South Africa

Nice prediction.

[Slats4ever]

Originally Posted by tooextracool

SA were clearly the best team in both the 96 and 99 world cups and had the best group of players on the field. They really should have won both world cups if it werent for their choking in the big games. I guess that was one of the disadvantages of the 96 wc format, the knockout stages happened way too early, and you really only needed one bad day to lose to a team that was significantly worse than you. As such in 2003, i dont think anyone could complain about SA not going through, they didnt really deserve to duckworth lewis or not.

to be fair i think australia had the best team in 99! they won I think, and they also won about 7 in a row when their backs were to the wall.

[tooextracool]

Originally Posted by Slats4ever

to be fair i think australia had the best team in 99! they won I think, and they also won about 7 in a row when their backs were to the wall.

Firstly Australia didnt win 7 in a row in that world cup. That is a misconception. The Aus-SA semifinal was a tie, they didnt win that game. They won 5 in a row(1 against bangladesh and another against zimbabwe).
As for Australia being the better side, i think if you made a direct comparison, you'd see that SA had far and away the better players. SA were batting all the way down to number 9 or 10(Boucher was coming in at 9), while Australia were batting down to 7(really 6 if you consider that moody was down at 7). Kallis back then was in his prime with the ball and averaging over 40 with the bat, Klusener was the player of the tournament, Cronje and Kirsten were both averaging 40, Rhodes was as brilliant as he always has been, and Gibbs, Cullinan, Boucher and Pollock are hardly bad players either.
Bar Mark Waugh and Bevan most of the Australian batsmen were averaging in the mid to low 30s, some like Martyn and moody were averaging in the 20s at the time.
The bowling was a little bit more even with Mcgrath, Warne and Fleming matching Pollock, Donald and Elworthy, but Reiffel was at the fag end of his career and was definetly no where near the class of Kallis and Klusener.
Fielding wise SA were by far the better team.
Cronje was easily a better captain than Waugh especially with Bob Woolmer by his side.
Looking at their respective records going into the tournament, SA were easily the better side.
Theres absolutely no way anyone can claim with a straight face that Australia had the better players. No one matched the SA side in terms of the quality of their players and the depth of batting, bowling, fielding and number of all rounders.

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

South Africa entered the World Cup in 1999 with the Champions Trophy under their belts. And I think player for player they had a superior squad to Australia's.

[sideshowtim]

Originally Posted by tooextracool

Firstly Australia didnt win 7 in a row in that world cup. That is a misconception. The Aus-SA semifinal was a tie, they didnt win that game. They won 5 in a row(1 against bangladesh and another against zimbabwe).
As for Australia being the better side, i think if you made a direct comparison, you'd see that SA had far and away the better players. SA were batting all the way down to number 9 or 10(Boucher was coming in at 9), while Australia were batting down to 7(really 6 if you consider that moody was down at 7). Kallis back then was in his prime with the ball and averaging over 40 with the bat, Klusener was the player of the tournament, Cronje and Kirsten were both averaging 40, Rhodes was as brilliant as he always has been, and Gibbs, Cullinan, Boucher and Pollock are hardly bad players either.
Bar Mark Waugh and Bevan most of the Australian batsmen were averaging in the mid to low 30s, some like Martyn and moody were averaging in the 20s at the time.
The bowling was a little bit more even with Mcgrath, Warne and Fleming matching Pollock, Donald and Elworthy, but Reiffel was at the fag end of his career and was definetly no where near the class of Kallis and Klusener.
Fielding wise SA were by far the better team.
Cronje was easily a better captain than Waugh especially with Bob Woolmer by his side.
Looking at their respective records going into the tournament, SA were easily the better side.
Theres absolutely no way anyone can claim with a straight face that Australia had the better players. No one matched the SA side in terms of the quality of their players and the depth of batting, bowling, fielding and number of all rounders.

okay then wise guy, surely if they were the far superior team they would've made the final and won it. australia > south africa. plain and simple.

[tooextracool]

Originally Posted by sideshowtim

okay then wise guy, surely if they were the far superior team they would've made the final and won it. australia > south africa. plain and simple.

because the best team does not always win a tournament? Theres a reason why the WI won the ICC championships last time. All you need is one bad day and you're out. Its the same in a sport like tennis, the best player doesnt always win grandslams, unless you're roger federer and the difference between you and the rest of the players is vast. SA outperformed every other team from 95-00, their record in ODIs is peerless.

[FaaipDeOiad]

Australia had a consistently superior record to South Africa in head to head ODIs in that period though, particularly in knockout matches. SA may have had better players in a head-to-head matchup, but there's no doubt that Australia had better players in pressure situations, and I think you underrate the leadership of Waugh compared to Cronje, given the impact that his leadership had in those two crucial matches in the '99 WC.

Warne, Bevan and Steve Waugh thrived under pressure in a huge way, while a handful of South African players really came apart pretty badly. Being the better side isn't just about consistently performing against all opposition, it's about performing when it counts and winning key matches.

edit: Incidentally, Ponting also averaged 40 odd going into that WC. More than Mark Waugh, in fact.

[aussie]

yea thats true, Australia beat South Africa in the 98 VB series & 4-3 in a ODI seires during that 96-99 period even though the Saffies probably had a better ODI team on paper.

[tooextracool]

Originally Posted by FaaipDeOiad

Australia had a consistently superior record to South Africa in head to head ODIs in that period though, particularly in knockout matches. SA may have had better players in a head-to-head matchup, but there's no doubt that Australia had better players in pressure situations, and I think you underrate the leadership of Waugh compared to Cronje, given the impact that his leadership had in those two crucial matches in the '99 WC..

Consistently superior head to head record? Between 95 and 00, SA had a 14-10 record against Australia and that includes a complete thrashing of them in the titan cup in 96/97 as well as complete dominance over them in the C & U series in 97/98(until the finals).
http://stats.cricinfo.com/guru?sdb=t...ields=viewtype

No SA were never the best team under pressure, particularly when it came to semi finals and finals but anyone can see that they had a far superior ODI record than Australia during that period against all nations and that they consistently had a much better XI on the field than Australia. As far as leadership is concerned, its blatantly obvious to anyone that Cronje was streets ahead of Steve Waugh in terms of leadership, match fixing or not.

Originally Posted by FaaipDeOiad

Warne, Bevan and Steve Waugh thrived under pressure in a huge way, while a handful of South African players really came apart pretty badly. Being the better side isn't just about consistently performing against all opposition, it's about performing when it counts and winning key matches.

SA might not have had the best record against Australia in tournament finals, but that doesnt however mean that they werent winning ODI series and finals otherwise. they still won the trophy in sharjah in 96 against India and Pakistant(walked all over them), the centenary trophy in kenya with SL and Pak in 96, the standard bank series with India and Zim in 97, the wills quadrangular tournament with pak, sl and WI in 97/98, the standard bank series with pak and SL in 98, the mini world cup in 98 and the standard bank series with England and zim in 99/00. They'd also beaten plenty of other teams in bilateral series in the meantime. To say that they werent better than Australia as a team because they didnt beat them in crunch games is pushing it IMO because they were definetly winning tournaments against other teams.

Originally Posted by FaaipDeOiad

edit: Incidentally, Ponting also averaged 40 odd going into that WC. More than Mark Waugh, in fact.

Yes Australia had about 3 good batsmen-M. Waugh, Bevan and Ponting. Steve Waugh was acceptable, as was gilchrist and the rest werent even established batsmen in the side(Lehmann, martyn, blewett, divenuto,law, moody, julian or even mark taylor and whoever else it was that was playing at the time). Compare this with SA who had Kirsten, Cronje, Klusener, Rhodes, Kallis all of whom were averaging 40 or thereabouts. Then there was also Cullinan,mcmillan Pollock and Boucher all of whom were extremely effective players despite what their average suggests.

[tooextracool]

Originally Posted by aussie

yea thats true, Australia beat South Africa in the 98 VB series & 4-3 in a ODI seires during that 96-99 period even though the Saffies probably had a better ODI team on paper.

Yes and SA knocked them out of the titan cup in 96 as well as beat them 2-1 immediately after losing cronje(in the heat of the entire match fixing scandal) in 00. point being?