Sunil1z
International Regular
Why do you a think a no .7 can stop batting collapse which Tendulkar, Kohli, Richards, Dhoni/Bevan can’t?
I need Kapil or Pollock to score 45 in last 5 overs . I don’t need them to stop batting collapse.
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All time ODI XI
- Thread starter Adorable Asshole
- Start date
I need Kapil or Pollock to score 45 in last 5 overs . I don’t need them to stop batting collapse.
subshakerz
International Coach
The perfect batsman for no.7 would be Klusener who had enough output at a good SR to finish off games as well as blast out a good score. But Klusener the bowler wasn't as good.
Kapil can blast out but with an average of 23 isn't ideal for a chase or if there is a collapse.
Imran is not as great a blaster but was more adaptable and more consistent. Imran was also the best bowler of all three.
subshakerz
International Coach
Yeah, Imran simply became a better bat, went up the order and hence his SR dropped.
Sunil1z
International Regular
You think Imran as an ODI bat is remotely comparable to them.
trundler
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In terms of strike rate, yes. He's clearly not Dravid. A 70+ rate in that era is elite. 80 at 7 is exceptional. You guys don't actually believe the Dravid thing either because you wouldn't then pick Jayasuriya over Sehwag or Jason Roy.
Sunil1z
International Regular
We pick Jayasuriya because he also has 323 ODI wickets . If Sehwag had 200 ODI wickets then his case would have been much strong .
Jayasuriya would be very useful if you pick only 4 main bowlers and rely on Jayasuriya + Klusener to complete remaining 10.
srbhkshk
International Captain
Exactly what is misleading about that? It's pretty well known that Imran was far better than Kapil at actually surviving on the crease and Kapil far better if you needed quick runs. The only thing that makes it misleading is you bringing up their average while not including SR.
trundler
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I like two bowling all rounders more. 20% of the teams overs being taken care of is more important imo. Batting looks thin tho.
Even Kapil’s bowling average tailed off in the last couple of years.
Imran at his best as a bowler between 79-89, took 149 wickets@23, at ER 3.84
Kapil at his best as a bowler between 81-91 took 205 wickets@25(186@24 if time period is between 83-91), at ER 3.7.
There peaks as bowlers are not that different. As batsmen an SR of 80 may have been elite in that era, but Kapil’s SR(which between the same period mentioned above at mostly 6 or 7) was 95+ @ an average of 26 is far better, and indicates he would fit as a finisher in the modern era as well. And in a chase, in that very rare case of chasing 150-200 on a minefield, where somehow Imran is able to survive what Tendulkar, Viv, ABD weren’t able to, is the only area he is a better bat than Kapil(due to his better mental application and reliability). Kapil is the perfect choice for the all rounder who plays as a fifth bowler, due to his very good stats(tho not ATG) stats as a bowler, and his brilliant SR at a position of 7 or so.
trundler
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My point was eras matter or Jason Roy ends up being a better opener then Jayasuriya and Gilchrist.
Maybe I am traumatised by Afridi but a 10 run average difference is overwhelmingly significant and makes SR differences unimportant especially if both guys are above the minimum threshold. I don't think a 10 run average difference is a true reflection of their ability for most of their careers though. Imran's overall numbers are better than Allan Border and only slightly worse than Ranatunga.
Imran’s SR was never great, maybe good for that era at one point of time. He literally struck @80+ for two separate years in his career.
srbhkshk
International Captain
Yes Trundler - it's fair if you consider it overwhelmingly significant. But it's not misleading.
If we didn't know their SR then it will be perfectly fair to say that Kapil was a far worse batsman compared to Imran and he is worse in spite of the SR - but the SR is what makes them closer than what their averages say, not because the averages are misleading in some manner.
Sunil1z
International Regular
Jason Roy has no longevity to even get considered for ATXI ODI spot . This is like picking Bumrah in ATXI .
I would like to summarise Imran vs Kapil from my pov.
Imran is better 3-5 batsman
Kapil is better 7-8 batsman.
And unlike you , I rate Afridi highly as an ODI cricketer.
A SR of 80 at 7 is not above the threshold when discussing an ATG XI. Imran’s average went up because he started batting above the order and at a more suitable pace. So what was gained in average was lost in SR.
Xuhaib
International Coach
I am not buying Imran as some outstanding odi batsman.
He could never rotate strike, would hit a four or a six here and there to keep up but still abat at a sluggish SR of around 50 for 80% of the innings being the alpha male and captain no one dared to question his approach and put him under pessure to bat at a quicker pace. Come the last 5-7 overs if he was there turn his 20(42) in to 60 (65) with some big hitting which i admit to his credit would come off quite often.
In retrospect Imran the odi batsman is not that different to misbah. Strong defence combined with big six hitting but let down by his strike rotation.
He could never rotate strike, would hit a four or a six here and there to keep up but still abat at a sluggish SR of around 50 for 80% of the innings being the alpha male and captain no one dared to question his approach and put him under pessure to bat at a quicker pace. Come the last 5-7 overs if he was there turn his 20(42) in to 60 (65) with some big hitting which i admit to his credit would come off quite often.
In retrospect Imran the odi batsman is not that different to misbah. Strong defence combined with big six hitting but let down by his strike rotation.
trundler
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Ok fair. I just don't rate that type of cricketer. Regardless I would still pick Kapil as my all time #7 at least 40% of the time. I don't think Klusener's bowling is good enough and Pollock at 7 looks dodgy. Imran or Flintoff would feature rest of the time.
Pollock at 7 or 8 is a even bigger must than Kapil. ATG ODI bowler(393 wickets @24, magnificent ER), and averages 30 at 7 at SR of 88. In my opinion, the best ODI all rounder ever.
trundler
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E-R-A differences man. Clive Lloyd is the perfect lower order batsman from the dinosaur era and his SR was 79. Lloyd is the proto Symonds/Hussey.