Virat Kohli: The Captaincy Breakdown

[subshakerz]

Still missing the point though. This is still attributing far more to Kohli than reality. If you're going to judge him or do a breakdown focus on actual actions and consequences.

So Graeme Smith is a bad captain? Sorry but as already mentioned earlier in the thread this is still subjective.

And you think there isn't any of that now? This sounds more like nostalgia more than anything.

Still making the mistake of giving captaincy more credit and respect vs the actual players performing their roles. Captaincy doesn't make Rahane score a 100 or let Ashwin big brain Smith out of the match, there's actual batting/bowling involved.

I think its pretty obvious it comes down to player performances whether a team wins or not. But it almost seems like you are saying a captain should get little to no credit at all which is something I disagree with.

I would agree that within limits the same team will get the same results regardless of who is leading. I think you can expect maybe 70 to 80 percent of the results to be achieved if you keep the same team but switch captains. There is still a decent margin for difference depending on if you get a capable leader.

The best example is Pakistan. In the 80s, Pakistan achieved better results and only had 2-3 captains that decade. In the 90s, despite having a more talented team, Pakistan started dropping winnable series, especially at home, even losing to Zimbabwe. The biggest reason was that there was a musical chairs as captain with a dozen or so captains taking the role that decade. Teams flourish under stable and strong leadership.

Pakistan is probably the best example of how bad captains or too many captains can ruin teams.

 

[cnerd123]

So we just pretend 2006 Munaf/Sreesanth did not exist along with Zaheer propping up well from his side?

They played every game while they were good and several when they weren't. Indian captains haven't been reluctant to use pace bowlers, they just usually didn't have any good pace bowlers to use

 

[subshakerz]

Look, I fully understand backroom staff have a role, the reality is, they have had a role for decades and with statisticians they have become even more important....although not necessarily better (came up a lot during the Mens World T20 and the talk of match ups) but the idea of going with quicks in tests was not the norm, even as recently as the late 2000s. There was still a heavy reliance on getting huge runs on the board and spinners, which is why India's away record was not as good or as competitive as it became later. The captain has an important role, far more in cricket than almost any other team sport.

Would be fair to remind that India in that period won in NZ, Eng, WI and had credible draws in SA and Aus. I dont automatically buy that India now are much better away from home than India in the 2000s till their World Cup win.

 

[honestbharani]

They played every game while they were good and several when they weren't. Indian captains haven't been reluctant to use pace bowlers, they just usually didn't have any good pace bowlers to use

If you could not see at least Munaf was messed up only by our previous management (coach+captain) then I dunno what to say.

 

[honestbharani]

had credible draws in SA and Aus.

So the main players were injured argument wont be made where it doesn't suit your bias...

 

[subshakerz]

So the main players were injured argument wont be made where it doesn't suit your bias...

Sure it doesnt count as much as if Warne and McGrath were there but I think calling that draw a good achievement is not a stretch. I think you would agree.

 

[cnerd123]

If you could not see at least Munaf was messed up only by our previous management (coach+captain) then I dunno what to say.

sure, but how does that mean Kohli created our current pace attack, or that he is somehow unique in selecting fast bowlers?

If anything you're reinforcing what we're saying. Just like the coaches and structures in place are to blame for ruining guys like Munaf, Sreesanth, RP, Irfan, etc, the coaches and structures in place should be credited for our current pace attack. Dhoni/Dravid/Ganguly/Kumble didn't wreck those bowlers the same way Kohli didn't create our current ones.

 

[karan_fromthestands]

the whole thread can be summed up by "unlikeable man was unlikeable" really

not the most novel of observations

This will be the title of sledger's memoir.

 

[subshakerz]

 

[Xix2565]

I think its pretty obvious it comes down to player performances whether a team wins or not. But it almost seems like you are saying a captain should get little to no credit at all which is something I disagree with.

I would agree that within limits the same team will get the same results regardless of who is leading. I think you can expect maybe 70 to 80 percent of the results to be achieved if you keep the same team but switch captains. There is still a decent margin for difference depending on if you get a capable leader.

The best example is Pakistan. In the 80s, Pakistan achieved better results and only had 2-3 captains that decade. In the 90s, despite having a more talented team, Pakistan started dropping winnable series, especially at home, even losing to Zimbabwe. The biggest reason was that there was a musical chairs as captain with a dozen or so captains taking the role that decade. Teams flourish under stable and strong leadership.

Pakistan is probably the best example of how bad captains or too many captains can ruin teams.

I'm saying it's difficult to determine how much on field stuff Kohli can take credit/blame for, let alone off field stuff beyond scraps given in various articles and interviews. The same thing PEWS has said already in this thread.

Okay, but this subjectiveness is not very helpful if one is doing a "complete" breakdown on Kohli's captaincy.

I mean more talented isn't a great indicator of anything in this regard. Pakistan dropping series deserves a more detailed analysis than what is relevant here, and I'm not necessarily on the train that they just needed a good captain to change their fortunes.

Would be fair to remind that India in that period won in NZ, Eng, WI and had credible draws in SA and Aus. I dont automatically buy that India now are much better away from home than India in the 2000s till their World Cup win.

I don't buy the idea that India are worse now away than before when the past teams didn't have a proper all around attack like the modern team. I also don't see how any of the other teams haven't improved and made the general quality of matches higher now than before.

 

[subshakerz]

I'm saying it's difficult to determine how much on field stuff Kohli can take credit/blame for, let alone off field stuff beyond scraps given in various articles and interviews. The same thing PEWS has said already in this thread.

Okay, but this subjectiveness is not very helpful if one is doing a "complete" breakdown on Kohli's captaincy.

I think we can argue about the degree to which his captaincy impacted things on the field. But your own stance is not clear as you seem to indicate he has zero to little influence on things.

Of course, assessing captaincy is not a hard science, it is subjective somewhat, which is why we all are giving our opinions and trying to back them up.

I mean more talented isn't a great indicator of anything in this regard. Pakistan dropping series deserves a more detailed analysis than what is relevant here, and I'm not necessarily on the train that they just needed a good captain to change their fortunes.

In-fighting and lack of discipline were hallmarks of the 90s team. I don't see why it is hard to believe that having many changes in captaincy in a short period will not adversely affect results, which it did. When they did have a decent captain for a longer time, Wasim, the results did relatively better, they didnt lose at home and did fairly well away.

I don't buy the idea that India are worse now away than before when the past teams didn't have a proper all around attack like the modern team. I also don't see how any of the other teams haven't improved and made the general quality of matches higher now than before.

I don't think India now are worse than before, though their batting certainly is. And it's not the case that all teams have become worse or better. It depends on the period you are comparing them with.

If you compare the teams now to lets say mid-2000s, Australia, England, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, SA certainly had better teams then. WI are around the same, NZ have got better.

If you compare the teams now to mid-90s, Australia, Pakistan, WI, SA had better teams then, England and NZ are better now, SL likely better then too.

If you compare them to mid-80s, Australia, England, Sri Lanka have better teams now, Pakistan and WI were better then, NZ around the same.

 

[honestbharani]

sure, but how does that mean Kohli created our current pace attack, or that he is somehow unique in selecting fast bowlers?

If anything you're reinforcing what we're saying. Just like the coaches and structures in place are to blame for ruining guys like Munaf, Sreesanth, RP, Irfan, etc, the coaches and structures in place should be credited for our current pace attack. Dhoni/Dravid/Ganguly/Kumble didn't wreck those bowlers the same way Kohli didn't create our current ones.

We have done this to death but if you think a captain believing and trusting in a fast bowlling attack and culture and also instilling a culture of fitness in the side does not make a difference, there is little point trying to talk sense to you on this topic.

 

[cnerd123]

We have done this to death but if you think a captain believing and trusting in a fast bowlling attack and culture and also instilling a culture of fitness in the side does not make a difference, there is little point trying to talk sense to you on this topic.

Might help if you actually read what I was responding to:

Kohli actually did very good work in putting together a very competent test pace bowling unit and a very good ODI pace bowling unit.

Putting together a bowling unit is so different to just trusting the unit that was already given to him.

Culture of fitness is to Kohli's credit and no one has actually disputed that. I've outright said it's one of the biggest influences he's had on the team. But again, so different to literally putting together the bowling attack.

 

[honestbharani]

Might help if you actually read what I was responding to:


Putting together a bowling unit is so different to just trusting the unit that was already given to him.

Culture of fitness is to Kohli's credit and no one has actually disputed that. I've outright said it's one of the biggest influences he's had on the team. But again, so different to literally putting together the bowling attack.

And again, Bumrah and the new Ishant and even the new Umesh were very much a product of how Virat encouraged and handled them than anything that was "given" to him. I am always gonna fault him for how Bhuvi was handled and by the same token, I think he has played as big a role as anyone in literally putting together this bowling attack. And it goes without saying he has backed Siraj forever too. And even Saini. You can decide to not look at all of these facts but they are still the reality.

 

[cnerd123]

And again, Bumrah and the new Ishant and even the new Umesh were very much a product of how Virat encouraged and handled them than anything that was "given" to him. I am always gonna fault him for how Bhuvi was handled and by the same token, I think he has played as big a role as anyone in literally putting together this bowling attack. And it goes without saying he has backed Siraj forever too. And even Saini. You can decide to not look at all of these facts but they are still the reality.

Nah this is nonsense. Kohli doesn't know a god damn thing about bowling quick and had no role to play in them being guns except for tossing them the ball and shouting encouragements. Terrible opinion.

 

[Spark]

Nah this is nonsense. Kohli doesn't know a god damn thing about bowling quick and had no role to play in them being guns except for tossing them the ball and shouting encouragements. Terrible opinion.

Wait is this a serious post or a bit

 

[cnerd123]

Wait is this a serious post or a bit

Serious. They're 90% the bowlers they already are by the time they're under Kohli's leadership. Throughout their career they have access to actual fast bowling coaches and physios to ensure their skills improve and they stay in shape. Throughout their development there are dozens of other coaches, captains, selectors and mentors all who played a role in their growth. All Kohli had to do was toss them the ball. How could anyone argue otherwise?

 

[subshakerz]

Might help if you actually read what I was responding to:


Putting together a bowling unit is so different to just trusting the unit that was already given to him.

Culture of fitness is to Kohli's credit and no one has actually disputed that. I've outright said it's one of the biggest influences he's had on the team. But again, so different to literally putting together the bowling attack.

I think Kohli did push the 5-man attack strategy which meant pace would be more of a feature. Yes, he did have those fast bowlers to choose from, but another captain like Dhoni would have easily gone for the classic 4-man attack.

 

[cnerd123]

I think Kohli did push the 5-man attack strategy which meant pace would be more of a feature. Yes, he did have those fast bowlers to choose from, but another captain like Dhoni would have easily gone for the classic 4-man attack.

Yea I agree with the first bit, but you have no idea what Dhoni would have done because he did not have the option available to him. The resources at Kohli's disposal is literally unprecedented in Indian history.

And besides, many people don't actually like the 5 man attack strategy, so while I credit Kohli with that many would see that as a black mark.

 

[subshakerz]

Nah this is nonsense. Kohli doesn't know a god damn thing about bowling quick and had no role to play in them being guns except for tossing them the ball and shouting encouragements. Terrible opinion.

Getting the best out of your pacemen is one of the traits of a quality captain. Brearley wrote a lot about this. It's not like bowlers are robots you just need to wind up and let loose.