India's Test Bowling Stocks

[vcs]

India's attack was about as good or even better than SA/Eng/SA on the recent tours while also completely outperforming any other attack by a huge margin in India.

I'd still have australia marginally better though because they have a spinner who can consistently do a job in any conditions.

Lyon's numbers are on the decline though. If you look at his statistics, 2017 is beginning to look like a bit of an outlier.

 

[ankitj]

India's attack was about as good or even better than SA/Eng/SA on the recent tours while also completely outperforming any other attack by a huge margin in India.

I'd still have australia marginally better though because they have a spinner who can consistently do a job in any conditions.

I don't think Ashwin is bad away from home. He did bowl crap in one important test in England but is otherwise better than India's front-line spinners of past. I wouldn't drop Ashwin for Jadeja overseas fwiw.

 

[stephen]

Lyon has played through a couple of years of bad tours for his bowling. SA and England tours are generally horrid for finger spinners. Combine that with his home disadvantage and I think he's still ridiculously good - for a finger spinner.

Whether he's better than Ashwin or Jadeja is debatable. Cummins and Bumrah are pretty even as well, but Hazlewood is better than any non- Bumrah Indian quick. The third quick - Starc or Pattinson is as good as India's non-Bumrah quicks.

So in turning tracks India have a huge advantage with multiple world class spinners. On pace tracks Australia have a small advantage.

Rabada, Philander and Maharaj make three backbone of a strong all conditions attack. Except in India.

 

[ishqiya]

Two bad test hardly means you can entirely discount South Africa. Australia have a strong attack as well.

I think India are miles ahead of anyone else in India but their attack isn't as good as foreign attacks in foreign conditions.

Over the history of the game very few attacks have been better than all other attacks home and away though.

Yeah but the gap in India is way wider than the gap outside and that too not everywhere (WI, SL for instance). Ind actually outbowled Aus in Aus by a decent margin (25 vs 33.59) and were only slightly worse in Eng (29.81 vs 24.57) and SA (23.49 vs 20.57).

Also this Indian bowling attack hasn't had a bad series in the last four years home/away. Averaged below 30 everywhere.

Aus has had some bad series - 40.46 in UAE 2018, 34.91 in SA 2018, 33.59 vs Ind at home 2018
SA too (It's not just two bad tests) - 33.43 in SL 2018, this one

 

[ishqiya]

Lyon has played through a couple of years of bad tours for his bowling. SA and England tours are generally horrid for finger spinners. Combine that with his home disadvantage and I think he's still ridiculously good - for a finger spinner.

Whether he's better than Ashwin or Jadeja is debatable. Cummins and Bumrah are pretty even as well, but Hazlewood is better than any non- Bumrah Indian quick. The third quick - Starc or Pattinson is as good as India's non-Bumrah quicks.

So in turning tracks India have a huge advantage with multiple world class spinners. On pace tracks Australia have a small advantage.

Rabada, Philander and Maharaj make three backbone of a strong all conditions attack. Except in India.

Not just India. SL too and I'd guess in other places in the subcontinent too.

India's advantage is that they have at least 3 good to great pacers for outside SC.
Other countries might have a decent first spinner but the lack of a second spinner makes their attack very weak.

Also one more factor is Indian fast bowlers potency in Indian conditions. The best fast bowler in series in India has always been Indian even if there were bowlers like Starc, Cummins, Hazlewood, Rabada, Philander, Anderson, Broad, Boult, Wagner etc in the contention.

 

[Slifer]

As a neutral imo the best overall attack in world cricket is probably Australia. That Indian bowlers outperformed their Aussie counterparts in the last series, is due to obvious reasons. India's attack is probably 2nd best, with RSA close behind.

 

[vcs]

If you are going to explain a 7+ point average difference in Ashwin/Jadeja vs. Lyon due to home advantage, then you need to do the same for the fast bowlers also, which would make Shami vs. Cummins or Rabada or Hazlewood very debatable.

 

[ishqiya]

As a neutral imo the best overall attack in world cricket is probably Australia. That Indian bowlers outperformed their Aussie counterparts in the last series, is due to obvious reasons. India's attack is probably 2nd best, with RSA close behind.

Naah, India's is the best.

Indian bowlers outperformed Aussies in India too in 2017 and that had Smith-Warner. Also they were way better in SA in 2018 than Aus. Also outbowled SL the few tiems they have toured there in the recent past which Aus couldnt. Aus also has had pretty poor performances in UAE.

 

[ishqiya]

If you are going to explain a 7+ point average difference in Ashwin/Jadeja vs. Lyon due to home advantage, then you need to do the same for the fast bowlers also, which would make Shami vs. Cummins or Rabada or Hazlewood very debatable.

Ashwin/Jadeja/Kuldeep actually have better averages than Lyon in the previous series. Ashwin also has a lower average than Lyon in the last SA/Eng tours too.

Using home conditions to show Lyon's disadvantage is a bad look. You'll have to do those for Shami/Ishant as well.

 

[stephen]

The difference between Australia and India in Australia was entirely due to batting. Pujara was the difference in that series. Throw Warner in that Australian side over Finch and it becomes a much more even contest.

But yeah, that makes India's attack the best they've ever fielded and the best going around at the moment. I'd still favour Australia's outside the subcontinent but as you say, India's gap is much larger in the subcontinent than Australia's is out of it.

 

[vcs]

Ashwin/Jadeja/Kuldeep actually have better averages than Lyon in the previous series. Ashwin also has a lower average than Lyon in the last SA/Eng tours too.

Using home conditions to show Lyon's disadvantage is a bad look. You'll have to do those for Shami/Ishant as well.

Ashwin never actually bowled that well last year apart from Edgbaston and Adelaide and he had injury troubles as well. India are fortunate that they have enough depth that they didn't have to bowl him to the ground until his figures took a hammering.

He has looked back to his best against SA though - not just looking at his statistics, but the way he set up and dismissed their best batsmen again and again in this series was reminiscent of peak 2016 Ashwin. Will be a huge asset if he can keep that up.

 

[Slifer]

Naah, India's is the best.

Indian bowlers outperformed Aussies in India too in 2017 and that had Smith-Warner. Also they were way better in SA in 2018 than Aus. Also outbowled SL the few tiems they have toured there in the recent past which Aus couldnt. Aus also has had pretty poor performances in UAE.

I assumed we're talking current attacks?? If we go back as far as 2017, then rsa still have Steyn which imo would tip things rsa way. Of course we'll never know how india would do in UAE which is unfortunate. Still imo the oz attack of Cummings, Hazlewood, Starc and Lyons is the one to beat. India have who : Bumrah, Yadav, Shami, Sharma, Jadeja and Ashwin? I don't watch much Indian cricket so I'd like to know what would be India's choice attack outside of India??

 

[OverratedSanity]

I don't think using averages to prove India bowled better than Australia in Australia is a good way to go about it since the obvious and valid retort will be than australia were missing their two best batsmen. But I think it was apparent just watching that series that India's bowlers just bowled better with more consistent plans. Remove Pujara from the equation entirely and you still had Starc draining runs all the time and the other quicks looking thoroughly unthreatening for the most part.

 

[OverratedSanity]

I assumed we're talking current attacks?? If we go back as far as 2017, then rsa still have Steyn which imo would tip things rsa way. Of course we'll never know how india would do in UAE which is unfortunate. Still imo the oz attack of Cummings, Hazlewood, Starc and Lyons is the one to beat. India have who : Bumrah, Yadav, Shami, Sharma, Jadeja and Ashwin? I don't watch much Indian cricket so I'd like to know what would be India's choice attack outside of India??

Bumrah Ishant Shami and one spinner is usually what they go with. They've bowled well in basically every series since 2016,with fringe players like bhuvi Yadav Pandya etc all coming in and doing well too in limited opportunities.

 

[OverratedSanity]

I don't think Ashwin is bad away from home. He did bowl crap in one important test in England but is otherwise better than India's front-line spinners of past. I wouldn't drop Ashwin for Jadeja overseas fwiw.

Bowled poorly in that second test in SA too. Theres some truth to ashwin getting a little more criticism than he deserves yeah though, I guess it comes with others overrating him based on his bowling in Asian conditions.

 

[ishqiya]

I assumed we're talking current attacks?? If we go back as far as 2017, then rsa still have Steyn which imo would tip things rsa way. Of course we'll never know how india would do in UAE which is unfortunate. Still imo the oz attack of Cummings, Hazlewood, Starc and Lyons is the one to beat. India have who : Bumrah, Yadav, Shami, Sharma, Jadeja and Ashwin? I don't watch much Indian cricket so I'd like to know what would be India's choice attack outside of India??

steyn hardly played post 2017. he kept getting injured midway through the first match of the series.

also considering how well india have done in ind, bang and sl it's more than likely they would have done well in uae. sl have done well in uae and india's attack is way better than theirs.

 

[morgieb]

If you are going to explain a 7+ point average difference in Ashwin/Jadeja vs. Lyon due to home advantage, then you need to do the same for the fast bowlers also, which would make Shami vs. Cummins or Rabada or Hazlewood very debatable.

I mean I can see your point, but I also suspect Ashwin/Jadeja have played way more Tests in turning conditions than not. Also I less than convinced that India is that much harder to bowl pace in on average than Australia. Indian pitches certainly aren't seamer friendly but I wouldn't really say modern Aussie pitches are either.

 

[ankitj]

Then discount batting stats of Aussie batsmen in Australia. Discount something. That's what we want.

 

[sunilz]

Then discount batting stats of Aussie batsmen in Australia. Discount something. That's what we want.

I think ICC rankings clearly discounts the batting average of Australian batsman Both Smith and Kohli have same ICC rating points despite huge difference in their batting average .
https://www.icc-cricket.com/rankings/mens/player-rankings/test/batting

 

[ankitj]

That's cool. Anyway, we should not hijack this thread.