Would Jacques Kallis and Imran Khan get more respect if they weren't all-rounders?

[Jassy]

Ok....maybe in their top 5 pacemen...easily. Really only Kapil, Vaas and Srinath are better pace bowlers.

And his bowling wouldn't be cannon fodder against an ATG side. Throughout his career he was consistently able to get good batsmen out.

Vaas? Think you mean Zaheer.

Anyway, look he did get good batsmen out every now and then but really he is not much more than a serviceable fifth bowler. Sure, against most of the current sides he'd probably a very decent first change bowler (as he was for SA) but I really don't want Kallis bowling against say, Hutton+Hobbs+Sobers+Lara(this is assuming he's in the first 11 or I'd add Don-Tendulkar-Richards)or something like that. To say he got good batsmen out is neither here nor there tbh....even Ishant Sharma has got good batsmen out (not saying he's better than Kallis). The question is how effective he'd be in an ATG side. I for one think his bowling against a truly great batting side would be pretty mediocre. If someone truly thinks he's better than the Tendulkars, Pontings and Richards as a batsman then fair enough we can agree to disagree but don't think his bowling should be a clincher....not against an all time side anyway.

 

[Prince EWS]

Vaas isn't Indian.

 

[Jassy]

And I don't think it's relevant that Kallis would be in India's top 5 pace bowlers ever, really. Harbhajan or Kumble would probably be South Africa's greatest ever spinner; doesn't mean much tbh.

 

[Red]

Vaas? Think you mean Zaheer.

Vaas isn't Indian.

Guys, I said Zaheer

 

[viriya]

Ok....maybe in their top 5 pacemen...easily. Really only Kapil, Zaheer and Srinath are better pace bowlers.

And his bowling wouldn't be cannon fodder against an ATG side. Throughout his career he was consistently able to get good batsmen out.

Please don't make Vaas an Indian pace bowler.. it hurts.

 

[Prince EWS]

And I don't think it's relevant that Kallis would be in India's top 5 pace bowlers ever, really. Harbhajan or Kumble would probably be South Africa's greatest ever spinner; doesn't mean much tbh.

Murali Kartik would probably be South Africa's greatest ever spinner.

 

[Red]

Vaas? Think you mean Zaheer.

Anyway, look he did get good batsmen out every now and then but really he is not much more than a serviceable fifth bowler. Sure, against most of the current sides he'd probably a very decent first change bowler (as he was for SA) but I really don't want Kallis bowling against say, Hutton+Hobbs+Sobers+Lara(this is assuming he's in the first 11 or I'd add Don-Tendulkar-Richards)or something like that. To say he got good batsmen out is neither here nor there tbh....even Ishant Sharma has got good batsmen out (not saying he's better than Kallis). The question is how effective he'd be in an ATG side. I for one think his bowling against a truly great batting side would be pretty mediocre. If someone truly thinks he's better than the Tendulkars, Pontings and Richards as a batsman then fair enough we can agree to disagree but don't think his bowling should be a clincher....not against an all time side anyway.

I reckon the "serviceable" fifth bowler (be it Sobers or Kallis) is vital. Holding an end while quicks rest, or containing while waiting for the new ball. Doesn't have to be all about wicket taking deliveries. To call these guys "cannon fodder" isn't really accurate. They'd be competitive and hold an end against the best of the best imo

 

[Prince EWS]

Kallis would be a real shot of making my ATWXI if Sobers didn't exist. He was a better bowler than Sobers but not by enough to really make his bowling a factor in his possible selection over the worst specialist batsman when there's already a serviceable fifth bowler in the side. Hammond was also an extremely handy bowler even if his Test record is a little unflattering.

 

[Jassy]

I reckon the "serviceable" fifth bowler (be it Sobers or Kallis) is vital. Holding an end while quicks rest, or containing while waiting for the new ball. Doesn't have to be all about wicket taking deliveries. To call these guys "cannon fodder" isn't really accurate. They'd be competitive and hold an end against the best of the best imo

Guess we'll agree to disagree here

The way I see it...the higher you go on the difficulty scale (in terms of opposition) the more irrelevant the secondary skill becomes; so while against middling teams I'd genuinely consider Kallis ahead of Tendulkar/Ponting because he's definitely a better a bowler than them (although at the risk of being termed a fanboy I must say both Tendulkar and Ponting definitely had talent with the ball; Tendu was a pretty decent spinner and would have bowled more for a side like SA or England...Ponting's bowled some genuinely freaky inswingers!) but against a truly great side I don't think the it would matter too much which of the three bowled. For the sake of the argument, even if we say that Kallis would still make more of a difference with the ball, I'd still go Ponting/Tendulkar/Richards over Kallis because I don't see them as equals with the bat.

Of course if we had a 'perfect' all rounder who could bat like Ponting and bowl like Warne/McGrath then that would be a different case but not even the Imrans, Kallis' and Sobers can claim to be an ATG bat+an ATG bowler. In fact, no cricketer in history can.

 

[viriya]

It is just ridiculous that a true FTB like Sangakkara who averages less than 50 against most of the top sides (we'll ignore the away record!) is supposedly Bradman's reincarnation and a legitimate ATG like Kallis is called a FTB. Totally absurd to call him a FTB.

Not sure why you bring up Sanga - he wasn't even in this discussion.. He averages 51+ away and has performed in Aus and NZ. Just because he hasn't done as well in Eng and SA he's a FTB? Sobers averaged 15 in NZ does that make him a FTB too? What about Dravid who didn't do well in SA or Aus?

Sanga can obviously do better in Eng/SA but it's not like getting runs in the subcontinent is the easiest thing in the world either - ask Ponting in India or Kallis in SL..

 

[Prince EWS]

Not sure why you bring up Sanga - he wasn't even in this discussion

Viriya, meet Jassy.

 

[Red]

. In fact, no cricketer in history can.

What?

 

[OverratedSanity]

What?

About Miller, genuine question... how strong were the west indies in his time? He got 4 out of his 7 hundreds and a big chunk of his wickets against them. Bit of a minnow basher if they weren't a good team, really.

 

[Jassy]

Ponting, Aravinda, Murali Karthik etc were not part of the discussion either. Let's not get touchy.

A bit ridiculous to compare Dravid and Sanga for mine. Dravid has the highest average of any subcontinent batsmen away from Asia....a good 10-12 points more than Sanga IIRC. As for Ponting - funnily enough the only place he failed in is also a place where Sanga failed in. I've not even mentioned how silly it is to compare non Asian players in Asia to an Asian player in Asia but anyway...

Dravid with an average above 40 failed in Aus? By those standards Sanga is a terrible failure in more than half the countries he tours and is a failure outside the SC.

None of those players average in the 30s in 4 countries. And even ignoring that...make two lists...one listing the countries Sanga averages 50+ against and one listing the countries he averages less than 50+ against....you'll see a pattern.

From the top of my head...he averages something in the early 40s vs Aus, 30s vs Eng, mid 40s vs SA(courtesy 287 at you know where), high 40s vs NZ.

Above 50 vs Bangladesh, Zimbabwe, India, Pakistan, WI.

Posting after a long time so glad the customary Sanga rant is out of the way ..here's hoping for a couple of tons from Sanga in England this test series.

 

[Jassy]

What?

ATG with the bat?

 

[Red]

ATG with the bat?

Yeh nah. But in my head yeh.

 

[viriya]

Ponting, Aravinda, Murali Karthik etc were not part of the discussion either. Let's not get touchy.

A bit ridiculous to compare Dravid and Sanga for mine. Dravid has the highest average of any subcontinent batsmen away from Asia....a good 10-12 points more than Sanga IIRC. As for Ponting - funnily enough the only place he failed in is also a place where Sanga failed in. I've not even mentioned how silly it is to compare non Asian players in Asia to an Asian player in Asia but anyway...

None of those players average in the 30s in 4 countries. And even ignoring that...make two lists...one listing the countries Sanga averages 50+ against and one listing the countries he averages less than 50+ against....you'll see a pattern.

From the top of my head...he averages something in the early 40s vs Aus, 30s vs Eng, mid 40s vs SA(courtesy 287 at you know where), high 40s vs NZ.

Above 50 vs Bangladesh, Zimbabwe, India, Pakistan, WI.

Posting after a long time so glad the customary Sanga rant is out of the way ..here's hoping for a couple of tons from Sanga in England this test series.

I brought up Ponting because it's the same scenario for him - unfamiliar conditions. Otherwise batsmen from Eng/Aus/NZ could never be labeled FTB (or home-track bullies in their case) since their performance in unfamiliar conditions somehow is not a factor when it comes to rating them amongst their peers?

The 30s in 4 countries statement is just deceiving..

Sanga averages in the 30s in WI after 4 Tests.. he hasn't toured there since 2008.. it's just an irrelevant stat. WI don't have any real bowling threat and most likely he was just out of form.. That's also the only country he hasn't made a Test century in - notable since he doesn't get to tour SA/Eng/Aus that much being in the SL team. Ponting averages 26 in India after 14 tests, vs Sanga 36 after just 6.. He hasn't done that well in India but to say he failed the same way Ponting did is stretching it quite a bit.

The only two countries that he legitimately hasn't done well in is Eng where he's played 9 tests in, and SA, where he averages 35 (incidentally higher than Dravid's 29 - the supposed standard for subcontinental away batting brilliance).

Apparently averaging 48+ vs NZ and SA is a black mark because he didn't quite get to that oh-so-important 50+ vs all countries?

I guess we have to start doing that for all batsmen now - 50+ vs all or gtfo!

Dravid <40 vs Aus, <34 vs SA, <50 vs SL
Tendulkar <43 vs Pak, < 43 vs SA, <50 vs NZ
Ponting <50 vs Eng, SA, SL
Lara <35 vs Ind, <42 vs NZ, <50 vs SA

I guess we didn't have any ATG batsmen in the past 20 years....

The only country that Sanga hasn't really done well vs is Eng, and most ATG batsman ended their careers with one or two teams that they did badly against - Sanga has a chance to improve on that record before he retires but it's irrelevant to whether he's an ATG batsman or not.

 

[Red]

I've never understood why Sangakkara is so denigrated by a lot of people.

 

[viriya]

mid 40s vs SA(courtesy 287 at you know where)

How is the fact that he got 287 vs SA at home somehow a negative? SA was bowled out for 169 in that test batting first, and his innings setup one of the worst innings defeats for SA. SA went on a 5 year period where they didn't lose a series away after that series..

It's almost as if he should do badly at home since it's too easy to get runs there - even when opposing teams repeatedly fail on the same pitch.

No one is knocking on Clarke's 329* vs India as a useless knock just because it was against an average indian pace attack on a belter at home.

 

[Jassy]

His WI record is no more 'deceiving' than his record in Aus where a 195 on a dead wicket boosts his average. At the end of the day, you can make as many excuses as you want and spin it however you want - he averages in the 30s in 4 countries. None of the truly great batsman have such records in as many countries...2 is the most you'll find and blokes like Tendulkar average 40+. The problem is, the places where Sanga has supposedly set the world on fire are also places where he hasn't played too much in.whereas with the other genuinely great players...wherever they have done well they have absolutely killed it...This is why Sanga's overall average outside the SC excluding Zimbabwe is 40. Since you claimed Dravid with an average of 41+ failed in Aus, we can safely say Sanga has been a failure outside the SC on average and also in more the half the countries he plays in.


As regards Ponting....like I said he only failed in one country...not four. He performed well in SL....did well in the only test he played in Pak and played them well on neutral venue. I did not say Sanga failed in the same way Ponting did in India, you are putting words in my mouth. But he did fail.FWIW, Ponting scored a live century in India unlike Sanga who scored a century when the match and series were both all but lost.

Anyway let's see how the great man goes in England. Hope he maintains his 40 avg at least. Would be embarrasing if it comes down to the 30s....but then again he'll probably play Bangladesh soon enough.