The Football ATG General Arguing/Discussing Thread

[harsh.ag]

This thread seems as good a place as any to ask this question.

My brother and I were debating the best English players of our lifetime last night.

He's quite a bit older than me, alas I'm not sure that makes too much of a difference. But to balance things let's say since 1980.

Rooney, Owen Lineker, Gascoigne were the ones we started with. Then things moved on so I brought it here.

Got to be Gazza hasn't it?

If you take internationals out of it, then Scholes for me.

 

[Howe_zat]

Beckham hasn’t been mentioned at all yet.

All fame and no trousers?

 

[GIMH]

I think the fame element may make people underplay his talents nowadays. He was definitely one of the best in the world for a short while.

Probably another in a long line of mercurial English talents who was never quite at the same level again following injuries

 

[Uppercut]

I think he’s somehow managed to become underrated now. Should definitely be in the conversation.

It might be Kane. I reckon his peak was higher than anyone else’s.

 

[BoyBrumby]

I think Owen and Rooney definitely had higher potential ceilings than Kane, IMHO.

In 98 & 04 respectively both ran at defenders like fleet footed teenage gods; it's really very sad that this was to be the zenith of their achievements in an England shirt. At the time it felt like the start of something wonderful.

I guess Harry's international career has maybe outstripped both of theirs already now.

 

[sledger]

Ashley Cole.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

It tends to be creative players and goal scorers who get most mentioned. But Neville, Terry, Ferdinand and Cole were all top class. All dicks of course, but no ones perfect.

 

[Uppercut]

I think Owen and Rooney definitely had higher potential ceilings than Kane, IMHO.

In 98 & 04 respectively both ran at defenders like fleet footed teenage gods; it's really very sad that this was to be the zenith of their achievements in an England shirt. At the time it felt like the start of something wonderful.

I guess Harry's international career has maybe outstripped both of theirs already now.

Dunno. Owen looked incredible as a teenager, but it’s hard to imagine him ever getting quite as good as Kane just because he was so far off. Kane had 30 league goal seasons, Owen never even got to 20.

Rooney’s had a much more productive career than Kane, but his potential was always massively overrated imo. He wasn’t especially fast, agile, or technical. I think he did as well as he could have with the talents he had.

I guess the thing was Kane is that he never for a second looked any better than he was. The opposite is true in fact. Has anyone ever been that good while looking like less of a footballer?

 

[sledger]

It tends to be creative players and goal scorers who get most mentioned. But Neville, Terry, Ferdinand and Cole were all top class. All dicks of course, but no ones perfect.

Yeah, Cole not my favourite player for fairly obvious reasons, but he was seriously good. Difficult to think of a better defender England have had since... well, maybe ever.

 

[Tom Halsey]

I'm repeating a point I made recently here, but for years after Cole left Arsenal he was seen as being out of form and everyone acknowledged his lack of form, but it seemed to me that no-one noticed that the lack of form has lasted about three seasons. He had the odd good game in that time but he went years without a good overall season at Chelsea until 09/10 I think from memory. I wouldn't have Neville in the discussion either, though Terry and Ferdinand definitely should be.

 

[Uppercut]

I'm repeating a point I made recently here, but for years after Cole left Arsenal he was seen as being out of form and everyone acknowledged his lack of form, but it seemed to me that no-one noticed that the lack of form has lasted about three seasons. He had the odd good game in that time but he went years without a good overall season at Chelsea until 09/10 I think from memory. I wouldn't have Neville in the discussion either, though Terry and Ferdinand definitely should be.

When I rewatched the 4-1 against Germany in 2010, Cole was probably England's worst player. Either him or Terry, which is funny because on paper they were the only two world-class players playing in their real position.

 

[GIMH]

Seaman

Neville
Adams
Ferdinand
Cole

Beckham
Gerrard
Gascoigne
Sterling

Lineker
Rooney

That was tougher than I thought but also probably has obvious gaps, and there's an obvious bit of shoehorning too

 

[BoyBrumby]

Big Sol always seems to get neglected from these sort of things.

Best centre half we've had in the Prem era, IMHO. Quick, strong and had incredible positional awareness.

 

[GIMH]

Big Sol always seems to get neglected from these sort of things.

Best centre half we've had in the Prem era, IMHO. Quick, strong and had incredible positional awareness.

I was torn between him and Adams if it helps

 

[harsh.ag]

Seaman

Neville
Adams
Campbell
Cole

Beckham
Robson (changed from Ferdinand)
Lampard
Sterling

Scholes
Lineker

 

[GIMH]

Interesting choice of positions for Ferdinand and Scholes

 

[OverratedSanity]

Scholes occasionally played as a second striker couldnt he

 

[harsh.ag]

Yeah, I just get the feeling that England have historically missed a defensive midfielder and Ferdinand was the best CB I could think of who was good on the ball. Adams was perfect as a leader and organizer and Campbell would be great under him. Personally love that position for Scholesy. Would drill goals and Lampard and him side by side coming forward is a nightmare (if they care to work together)

 

[BoyBrumby]

I was torn between him and Adams if it helps

Much as I love the great man, wouldn't have to think on Sol v Adams for too long.

Of course I'd have them both ahead of Rio though. And Terry. And Butcher. And Des Walker.

In fact, if we were doing a "most overrated English player since 1980" Rio would be in the shouting match.

He had some tremendous attributes such as his pace and relative composure on the ball. This latter quality though seems to obscure some seasoned observers to his real weakness, his concentration, or lack thereof. Pretty much every game he'd cough up a chance because he'd dozed off.

He also had a bit of a reluctance to attack the ball in physically tight situations compared to other top class centre backs too. Bit old school of me, but you wouldn't see him doing the dirty work Stam or Vidic did.

 

[harsh.ag]

Yeah, I just get the feeling that England have historically missed a defensive midfielder and Ferdinand was the best CB I could think of who was good on the ball. Adams was perfect as a leader and organizer and Campbell would be great under him. Personally love that position for Scholesy. Would drill goals and Lampard and him side by side coming forward is a nightmare (if they care to work together)

Wait, Robson exists! Heh. Swap him in for Ferdinand.