*Official* English Football Season 2014-15

[Uppercut]

Heh.

I don't think it's a Europe thing. Until last night you were demolishing sides you'd expect to beat and struggling against other big sides in Europe, but that's not far from what happened in the league last year. I think your best shape has two strikers plus Yaya and it's usually too open for the big games.

Of course this wouldn't be so much of a problem if you didn't keep getting nightmare draws.

 

[cpr]

It's definitely a learning curve, teaching a side to play against 3 different national styles, getting comfy enough in yourselves to do it. We struggled at first in Europe, even after 99 we had to go back to the drawing board and re-adapt. Teams who shouldn't have beaten on us on paper did.

What makes it more difficult for you is you are a marked card - everyone knows the strength of the City team, and TBH anyone who can win the Prem has to be seen as a major threat, given the sucess that Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal have had in the last decade (I know Arsenal haven't won it, but to say that means they've not peformed well is setting the bar very high compared to most nations in Europe). Thus teams will be more weary and defensive, plus with the popularity of the Prem, they'll be very familiar with your play.

Apart from Bayern, who you've been twinned with in Europe. They'll do nasty things to anyone.

The crowd situation last night didn't help, especially with them managing to sneak 500 fans into an empty stadium - though with them being tickets sold on the black market by UEFA delegates, **** all will be done about it.

 

[Cabinet96]

How do you feel about the Ozil deal? Surely in comparison it's been an unmitigated disaster.

If his contract ended tomorrow? Definitely. If his current form lasted his entire time at Arsenal? Probably. But he's only just turned 26, and there's scope to realistically hope he can improve his performances at some stage or another, which there isn't with RVP. I mean the same wage bill source, actually implies it's marginally cheaper for Arsenal to have Özil for four years than it is with RVP at United, despite a transfer fee which is twice as large. Surely you'd expect all of Özil's seasons to be better than all bar one of RVP's? Then I guess it depends how highly value you that one title winning season. £86 million for six years of 24 year old Özil seems a better deal than £73 million for 28 year old RVP to me.

FTR, this isn't just an RVP thing. There's become this trend to give players on huge salaries long contracts into their thirties, i.e. when you'd expect the average player to be significantly past their best. Yaya Toure on £200k a week until he's 34 and Aguero (seriously) are ones to watch out for. I know City are rich but FFP is a thing.

I mean, everyone laughs at the Carroll deal, and rightly so, but Fernando Torres is without a shadow of a doubt the worst piece of business in football history. £50million plus a 5 year plus contract on £175k, costing nearly as much as the original transfer fee as well. I know you say Socernomics found out it's better to pay higher salaries than higher transfers but I just don't see it. The consequences are felt for too long meaning there are too many variables to it being good business as someone can just turn to **** (Torres) and it doesn't really work for players who are old and injury prone (RVP). It's impossible to cut your loses when you have someone 30+ who isn't performing and is only stupid wages.

 

[Tangles]

Fellaini scoring the other night was annoying at the time because I really think we need to sell him. Goals give him playing time and I really don't want that. The silver lining I'm hoping is that some playing time and a few goals will convince someone to buy him in January.

 

[Uppercut]

FTR Soccernomics also found that strikers peak, on average, at the age of 24-25. I do agree with the general point, and that Torres was a worse deal than Carroll.

I wouldn't have thought it was up for dispute that one title-winning season followed by three years in 6th is better than four straight years in 3rd or 4th. Winning stuff is miles better than everything else.

 

[grecian]

Fellaini scoring the other night was annoying at the time because I really think we need to sell him. Goals give him playing time and I really don't want that. The silver lining I'm hoping is that some playing time and a few goals will convince someone to buy him in January.

Nah, you want him playing really well until January. He must be on huge wages and a long contract, he's not going anywhere unless a good club comes in for him. Why would he?

 

[Jarquis]

He'd

FTR Soccernomics also found that strikers peak, on average, at the age of 24-25. I do agree with the general point, and that Torres was a worse deal than Carroll.

I wouldn't have thought it was up for dispute that one title-winning season followed by three years in 6th is better than four straight years in 3rd or 4th. Winning stuff is miles better than everything else.

I'm gonna reply anyway because, well, **** you.

But while I know the argument you've put forward there is hypothetical, that's not what's happened in reality. You've had one title and one year in 6th and now face two/three further years with a milestone around your necks in the form of an expensive, aging, injury prone striker (or three). Which will undoubtedly inhibit you moving forward.

To me, Özil is a signing which, while far from 'guaranteeing' anything in the way RVP did for you and that league title, increases our chances indefinitely going forward. I don't see how without him we would have been able to finish where we did last season, even if we had scraped CL I don't think we'd have signed Sanchez etc etc. I don't see how you can label the transfer disastrous at all - he was never going to win is the league on his own as (a) he's not that sort of player and to not appreciate that is to fall in line with the average British football journalist and (b) because of the shortcomings in the squad elsewhere nobody short of Messi or Ronaldo would have seen us over the line in all likelihood.

There's just an ideological difference though and one which has been covered numerous times in the thread - some people see success in the here and now as the be all and end all and don't care for the next 5 years so long as they win next year whereas I'd rather sacrifice something in the present to have a better chance at sustained success. Think the most recent time this came up was when arguing whether Arsenal should go and splurge ridiculous amount on someone (Falcao( to have an improvement on Giroud for this season or whether to hold off in the hope of getting a more long term solution or an even better player next summer.

 

[Tangles]

Nah, you want him playing really well until January. He must be on huge wages and a long contract, he's not going anywhere unless a good club comes in for him. Why would he?

I suspect it won't take much of an offer for LVG to sell him. If Fellaini is willing to refuse anything with less wages then I'm not sure how well that would go over. LVG is a bit of a authoritarian and may just sit him in reserves till he changes his mind.

 

[cpr]

Don't see why you want rid of Fellaini so badly. Last season was not the real Fellaini IMO. He came in on deadline day with no time to settle in with new teammates, was injured pretty quickly, then spent the rest of the year trying to fit in with a manager not knowing what to do and a team not performing.

The 45 minutes on Monday showed what he can give us, a strong prescence in a midfield packed with small tricky intricate players, a person who can arielly attack a ball rather than woodenly waiting for a pass through the defence. He's also an engine of a midfielder equally adept at tracking back as he is at going forward, and will gladly help Blind shelter our fragile defence - or replace him if injury requires (heavens knows we aren't exactly stocked in that department). I want him to stay and prove those who made him a scapegoat last year wrong.

 

[grecian]

Don't see why you want rid of Fellaini so badly. Last season was not the real Fellaini IMO. He came in on deadline day with no time to settle in with new teammates, was injured pretty quickly, then spent the rest of the year trying to fit in with a manager not knowing what to do and a team not performing.

The 45 minutes on Monday showed what he can give us, a strong prescence in a midfield packed with small tricky intricate players, a person who can arielly attack a ball rather than woodenly waiting for a pass through the defence. He's also an engine of a midfielder equally adept at tracking back as he is at going forward, and will gladly help Blind shelter our fragile defence - or replace him if injury requires (heavens knows we aren't exactly stocked in that department). I want him to stay and prove those who made him a scapegoat last year wrong.

I'm not going to argue with most of your points, in the end I think it's pretty well-known that I don't care about your lot, other than to laugh at them nowadays.Yet could people stop using "scapecoat" wrong, I'm obviously susceptible to worrying about this because of the KP situation. Yet bloody hell, it should be only used if someone (who had nothing whatsoever to do with the problem) is sacrificed ALONE for a disaster. This isn't really the case at United or England.

It's almost as annoying as "decimated".

This probably should go in Grinding gears thingy but CBFed.

 

[Magrat Garlick]

yeah the correct term is clearly escape goat

 

[GIMH]

Yeah, this. It's too naive to just look at the straight up fee. For example, this says RVP is on 250k a week, which means it costs about £13 million a year on wages. So it's more like £72 million for one league title and three years of averageness.

Players aren't pure outlay though, are they? What about shirt sales, ticket sales, TV revenue, the fact that prem prize money is massive, etc etc.

 

[Uppercut]

Don't see why you want rid of Fellaini so badly. Last season was not the real Fellaini IMO. He came in on deadline day with no time to settle in with new teammates, was injured pretty quickly, then spent the rest of the year trying to fit in with a manager not knowing what to do and a team not performing.

The 45 minutes on Monday showed what he can give us, a strong prescence in a midfield packed with small tricky intricate players, a person who can arielly attack a ball rather than woodenly waiting for a pass through the defence. He's also an engine of a midfielder equally adept at tracking back as he is at going forward, and will gladly help Blind shelter our fragile defence - or replace him if injury requires (heavens knows we aren't exactly stocked in that department). I want him to stay and prove those who made him a scapegoat last year wrong.

I think this might be a little too optimistic, but I'd hope you're right.

Has Tangles seen us play this season? We're not in a position to get snobby about which of our players are performing well. If he even became half the player he was at Everton he'd be one of our best players.

 

[Tangles]

I've seen us play all the league games this season. I just don't rate Fellaini period. He's not good enough to play in the midfield and throwing him forward, while effective at times, has us playing route 1 football which doest suit the squad. I don't see the value of his occasional Duncan Ferguson impression if he can't hold down a midfield spot.

 

[cpr]

You know me, ever the optimist when it comes to Utd. I even backed Anderson to live up to his potential for far too long (about 15 minutes)

 

[flibbertyjibber]

Fellaini scoring the other night was annoying at the time because I really think we need to sell him. Goals give him playing time and I really don't want that. The silver lining I'm hoping is that some playing time and a few goals will convince someone to buy him in January.

Surely if you want rid of him it is better he is doing ok in the side when he does play as you will get more teams interested and a bigger fee for him when he does go.

 

[Uppercut]

I've seen us play all the league games this season. I just don't rate Fellaini period. He's not good enough to play in the midfield and throwing him forward, while effective at times, has us playing route 1 football which doest suit the squad. I don't see the value of his occasional Duncan Ferguson impression if he can't hold down a midfield spot.

Nah this isn't true at all. You can play really nice stuff around a big man up top, we saw it with Mandzukic at Bayern. He's not really a route-one type of target man anyway.

 

[Tangles]

I just don't quite see how he fits in under LVG. We have a squad top heavy with attacking talent and that includes plenty of midfielders. Maybe LVG wants a 2nd DM to shield with Blind so that's the only vacancy I can think of for him. That being said I don't think he can fill that role at all and if fit Carrick has it. I'm happy for him to go on a mad run and prove me wrong but currently he's an expensive bench warmer.

 

[cpr]

Plus he's not an up top player really either - he says himself he wants to be a DM, and is more of a box to box player when 100% fit. Its not like our defensive units are full of ariel power either, so he's at least handy in that regard.

 

[Cabinet96]

FTR Soccernomics also found that strikers peak, on average, at the age of 24-25. I do agree with the general point, and that Torres was a worse deal than Carroll.

I wouldn't have thought it was up for dispute that one title-winning season followed by three years in 6th is better than four straight years in 3rd or 4th. Winning stuff is miles better than everything else.

Yeah, I think the second point is where the disagreement lies, and I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Maybe I've been brainwashed by Arsenal, but I prefer longer term sustainability.