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Help me pick an EPL side

Which EPL team should I support?


  • Total voters
    30

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Like Pothas said, I almost, almost want Liverpool to become an all-conquering European destruction unit after hearing what you've said.

Almost.
I'd love to be wrong, but it's not going to happen. The guy has never had anything above a 40% winning record in any club in England, and even some of those teams he made champions in Scandanavia didn't win that much. He's simply out of his element.

If most of the players stay, then it's still basically Rafa's team anyway. We won't be mid-table but under Roy I doubt we'll get back into Europe (CL) again. What I'd consider a minimum for Benitez I'd call an achievement for Roy.
 
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Matteh

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
That Blackburn side slowly slid down and got relegated without his help.
Fulham were 15 minutes from being relegated and he's taken them to a UEFA Cup final. Pretty sweet turnaround.
Took Switzerland to their first major finals in around 40 years.
etc.

He's an expert at making **** sides good, so he'll be perfect for Liverpool.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Well, he actually took them to 6th IIRC and got them into the UEFA cup. Spent about 20 million - which was huge at the time - then helped them get relegated while being sacked mid-season.

The reality is, Liverpool isn't a **** side or a mediocre side - at least it wasn't under Benitez. Last year was very bad, but it does not hide the fact that simply the year before it, with 90% of the same players, we were RUNNER-UP and set the EPL record for points by a 2nd placed team. We were in debt and had **** owners then too. It didn't all go to ****s in this last year - it was pretty **** before too.

I'd love to be wrong, but in all likelihood I won't be. We replaced a European champion and double La Liga winner with someone who hasn't won jack in over 10 years and doesn't have any achievement to even compare properly with the top managers he will be competing against. It's christmas come early for Roy, but it's ****house for us.

A lot of Liverpool fans have been deluded for years. Our team was never good enough to win for a long time. Rafa made us look better than we were and we got results that if Hodgson were to merely match - I keep saying - he'd be knighted for. But now we no longer have that coach - and I actually did agree that his time was up - but there is a colossal ****-up in there when we give away one of the best managers in the world and pay 8.5 million pounds to get Hodgson.

If the situation was so dire, they should have hired Dalglish, who at least worked with Rafa, knew how the club was being run, and actually has 4 league titles to speak of (and don't talk about how long ago that was because basically that same point goes against Roy). If it was so dire, why did they spend 8.5 million pounds to see of Benitez, when the club might be sold in the next few months.

I'm not fooled by the xenophobic media that had made Roy a media darling for something which Steve McLaren did just a few years ago (UEFA final with an unfancied team). Yet it is a joke that a club with any real ambitions could get these two. Either Liverpool is now a mid-table team and is happy with that, or they made the mother of all ****-ups and appointed someone who hasn't achieved jack, replacing one who almost every season assured us of a top 4 finish and the latter stages in Europe, and are praying for a miracle.
 
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Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
If most of the players stay, then it's still basically Rafa's team anyway. .
It is basically Rafa's team and if you look at the squad, it is threadbare. So little depth. Admittedly he did an ok job in getting decent money back for players sold (thank you Alonso and Real)

Rafa bought so many average players it is hard to keep track. A rough estimate and a quick count put him signing 54 senior players during his time at a cost of approx 230 million pounds. The problem is that he bought so many mid level guys that were not good enough to start. There was no continuity apart from one or two guys. He had a squad full of squad players that were being bought for too much and being paid too much and then moving on.

Now after all that and despite this huge turnover, the squad it weak and lacking in both high end talent and depth.

Just for fun, this if my 'Rafa's 100 million Pound Dream Team.' Total cost = approx 106 million

Code:
[B]Rafa's 100 Million Dream Team[/B]

---------------------------Calalieri (3)---------------------------

-----Johnson (18)-----Palletta(2)-----Josemi(2)-----Dossena(7)-----

---------Pennant(6.7)---------Aquilani(20)---------Riera(8)--------

----------------------------Morientes(8)---------------------------

-------------------Keane(20)---------------Babel(11.5)-------------
World beaters :)

Anyway, after all that, he still won the Champions League. Something I will always be thankful for (I have a wonderful drunkenly scrawled letter to my then newborn baby from after the game.)

To bring this post full circle. You say that Hodgson will inherit Rafa's squad. Well Rafa inherited Houllier's squad and won the Champions League with only 2 players he had signed in the starting line-up. You could argue that Rafa is leaving the team in a worse state than he started with a lot of faffing inbetween and one wonderful night in Istanbul to remember him by.
 
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cpr

International Coach
Look, Ikki.

Rafa Had to go. He spent the majority of last year waving his **** around in the press, basically slating the board at any opportunity (Keane wasnt my idea.... I need money for players etc etc). His come and get me pleas to other teams were about as subtle as a porn star at a gang bang. He deliberately and systematically made his position untenable, knowing either someone will offer him a job (which was unlikely as they'd have to pay Liverpool millions) or the club would cave in and sack him (and pay him millions). He could happily angle for the sack, as he is high enough calibre to walk into a club that could meet his demands, and pocket millions in the process.


The problem for the club is no one would pick this guy off them due to the cost, yet they knew if he went free he'd walk into a job. The final straw is the effect his actions had on the team, who shouldn't have finished below 3rd but for internal issues. His actions have cost the club millions, so they had to sacrifice the severance pay before he did anymore damage.

Now put yourself into a top managers shoes.... You have a secure job, pays nice, good relationship with your boss. Do you leave that job for another with higher prestige, but an unstable heirarchy that are looking to jump ship, staff who are discontented with the club, and very little resources to mould the set up into what you want?? The fact Hodgson has is good for you, because little else would've done, even those unemployed can wait a few months for the next opportunity


Hodgsons contract is 2 years, so he either
A) does 2 years during your clubs transition, and tries to bring stability and happiness to the squad
B) watches the club get bought out, and gets sacked by the new owners because his contract wont cost that much to pay off, which'll open the door to the big name you want.


Fact is, whilst you've got the Yanks owning the club, Benitez was the best man for the job, but he wanted a better job and would do anything for it, so you'll have to settle for Roy until everything changes.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
It is basically Rafa's team and if you look at the squad, it is threadbare. So little depth. Admittedly he did an ok job in getting decent money back for players sold (thank you Alonso and Real)

Rafa bought so many average players it is hard to keep track. A rough estimate and a quick count put him signing 54 senior players during his time at a cost of approx 230 million pounds. The problem is that he bought so many mid level guys that were not good enough to start. There was no continuity apart from one or two guys. He had a squad full of squad players that were being bought for too much and being paid too much and then moving on.

Now after all that and despite this huge turnover, the squad it weak and lacking in both high end talent and depth.

Just for fun, this if my 'Rafa's 100 million Pound Dream Team.' Total cost = approx 106 million

Code:
[B]Rafa's 100 Million Dream Team[/B]

---------------------------Calalieri (3)---------------------------

-----Johnson (18)-----Palletta(2)-----Josemi(2)-----Dossena(7)-----

---------Pennant(6.7)---------Aquilani(20)---------Riera(8)--------

----------------------------Morientes(8)---------------------------

-------------------Keane(20)---------------Babel(11.5)-------------
World beaters :)

Anyway, after all that, he still won the Champions League. Something I will always be thankful for (I have a wonderful drunkenly scrawled letter to my then newborn baby from after the game.)

To bring this post full circle. You say that Hodgson will inherit Rafa's squad. Well Rafa inherited Houllier's squad and won the Champions League with only 2 players he had signed in the starting line-up. You could argue that Rafa is leaving the team in a worse state than he started with a lot of faffing inbetween and one wonderful night in Istanbul to remember him by.
It is Rafa's team and it is the same team that, bar last year, regularly got deep into the CL and challenged for the title just over a year ago. So, although it isn't a squad brimming with talent like Chelsea or United's, it's one that didn't cost near as much.

There were many middling players bought, but that's precisely because we didn't have the money, and if we did, we'd only be fixing 1 problem while leaving another bare. Liverpool's first XI is probably as good as any other in the world provided it isn't riddled with injuries. You couldn't say that about the team Benitez inherited. That's why I said in the other thread, if we really wanted to recoup money, we could get a huge amount in just 3 sales. All the money that went towards the team is still there.

You're XI is nonsensical because half the players are still at the club. Cavalieri, Aquilani, Johnson, Babel and Riera are still there. We paid over the odds for Johnson, but the others were worth it and will garner a similar value if resold.

Keane (who as actually Parry's screw up) himself was bought for 20 and sold already for a loss of about 5 million pounds (taking into account add-ons). Dossena was sold for 4.25 million. Josemi (who is not a CB) was bought for 2 million, swapped for Krompkamp who was sold and we bought Arbeloa - who was sold later for a 3.5 mill. In that transfer, especially, you see Benitez's sales: a cheap player swapped for a better one, then swapped again for another one, all for the same price. The reality is, you have to make punts with players who are that cheap - no one has a track record like Wenger's to be successful so often, Rafa's no different. Pennant was bought for 6.7 and his contract was not renewed. Morientes cost 5.5 million (potentially rising to 6.7) and was sold for 3-3.5 million. Palleta was bought for 2 and was sold for 1.2.

The total loss of the above is roughly 17.25 mil over 6 players or roughly 2.9 mill per player. And this is over several years.

What should be mention is that your list is quite arbitrary. For example, had you named Sissoko, San Jose, Arbeloa, Voronin, Nunez and many others whom we actually made money on, then you won't see it all so one-sided. In total, Rafa has spent 75 million net, to revamp the whole squad, where today there are only 2 players who are still there from when he arrived. The value of the squad far exceeds that 75 mill net figure. And, he bought players for the reserves/youth team, like Insua, Ngog, Jonjo, Ayala, etc.

So you say, the problem was he bought so mid-level guys, when the reality is that he couldn't buy anything but those guys. Of the 57 players, IIRC, over 40+ of them were between 0-6 million pounds. We could probably sell Torres and Mascherano and recoup the net money spent by Rafa right now.


Look, Ikki.

Rafa Had to go. He spent the majority of last year waving his **** around in the press, basically slating the board at any opportunity (Keane wasnt my idea.... I need money for players etc etc). His come and get me pleas to other teams were about as subtle as a porn star at a gang bang. He deliberately and systematically made his position untenable, knowing either someone will offer him a job (which was unlikely as they'd have to pay Liverpool millions) or the club would cave in and sack him (and pay him millions). He could happily angle for the sack, as he is high enough calibre to walk into a club that could meet his demands, and pocket millions in the process.


The problem for the club is no one would pick this guy off them due to the cost, yet they knew if he went free he'd walk into a job. The final straw is the effect his actions had on the team, who shouldn't have finished below 3rd but for internal issues. His actions have cost the club millions, so they had to sacrifice the severance pay before he did anymore damage.

Now put yourself into a top managers shoes.... You have a secure job, pays nice, good relationship with your boss. Do you leave that job for another with higher prestige, but an unstable heirarchy that are looking to jump ship, staff who are discontented with the club, and very little resources to mould the set up into what you want?? The fact Hodgson has is good for you, because little else would've done, even those unemployed can wait a few months for the next opportunity


Hodgsons contract is 2 years, so he either
A) does 2 years during your clubs transition, and tries to bring stability and happiness to the squad
B) watches the club get bought out, and gets sacked by the new owners because his contract wont cost that much to pay off, which'll open the door to the big name you want.


Fact is, whilst you've got the Yanks owning the club, Benitez was the best man for the job, but he wanted a better job and would do anything for it, so you'll have to settle for Roy until everything changes.
The club is about to be sold in the next few months with bids being taken this month. Those in charge will decide the best offer and sell up - the owners can't block the sale. That means whatever relationship you think is strained would not exist once the club was sold and makes the doom-mongering look silly. It looks especially silly, in that if we're so terribly off, why the **** did they spend 8 million pounds to get Roy? If we couldn't spare the money, we already had a manager of even higher repute in Kenny Dalglish. Even SGE would be an upgrade on Hodgson and he threw his hat in a while ago. In fact, there are many, it's stupid to pretend like Hodgson is some white knight. He isn't; in many ways he is an opportunist. No other big club in the world would give him the job anymore.

I thought Rafa had had his time as well, I wasn't upset to see him go if truth be told because his style of play had grated on me through the last few years. But even Roy's wife knows that Rafa is the better coach and if the situation is so dire that we need a top 4 finish, the worst thing they did was fire Rafa for Roy.
 
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vcs

Request Your Custom Title Now!
The fact that he bought and sold so many players was what got him into trouble in the first place. No settled first team, constantly bringing in intermediate-level players (Crouch, Bellamy, Pennant etc.) and shipping them out the following year. You say he had to do it because he had limited funds and had to upgrade all the positions simultaneously. I don't buy that, a good coach can fill a lot of gaps by intrinsic improvement within the team, giving promising youth a chance, bringing in an experienced guy on a free transfer etc. If there is no one worth buying within your budget, you don't buy. You don't settle for cheaper short-term options that you know aren't good enough.

Benitez also failed to get the best out of several attacking players... Keane, Babel, Riera, Morientes.. the list goes on. He offered Alonso around to several clubs (God, I wish Arsenal had bought him then), he goes on to become your best player in 08-09, and promptly leaves because of the way he had been treated. If Arsenal had treated Fabregas like that, he would have left long back. Torres is the only attacker to have flourished under him. So did Gerrard, but he had already been at the club a long time and was probably hitting his peak anyway.

Also, last season, some of his decision-making was baffling. How many times did he take off Torres when you were desperate for a goal? I distinctly remember Gerrard was caught shaking his head in bemusement by the cameras on one of those occasions. He tried out some weird formations, made poor subs and generally lost the plot. This was something he used to be good at prior to last season.

And his obsession with Kuyt was ridiculous. I mean, I like Kuyt, intelligent, hard-working player who sacrifices himself for the team, but he doesn't deserve more than a Park or Rosicky-type bit-part role in a team challenging for top honours.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
There are just too many asterisks to all those points, many of which are tired.

Yes, he didn't make many transfers work - who has a completely good record? But if not for the sales of guys like Crouch and Bellamy there would be no Torres. You just have to look at the team by year to see that it was improving. Not improving it - not spending the money - isn't an option when not only the likes of United, Chelsea and Arsenal have a throughput of players, but others like Villa, Tottenham and City are spending as much and more. The league throughout Benitez's reign is much different than what it was under Houllier or what it was in the 90s.

Then there are ordeals like Xabi, and if you're a Liverpool fan and actually knew what went on, it's tiring hearing the same tripe about how Benitez was wrong to shop him around a year earlier. Xabi had 2 good/great seasons for us, they were his first and last year. The seasons in between he was injury-prone, slow and many questioned whether he had it in him to return back to his first season. He did get back and we had a very good season because of it, but Xabi wanted to move on and he did. Rafa was looking out for the interests of the club and at the time it made sense. Ironically, Rafa wanted more than what other clubs were willing to pay - 16 million would have settled it. So if anyone knew what Xabi was worth it was Rafa. Juventus passed up the opportunity and so did Arsenal. So pretending like he didn't know what he was doing is disingenuous.

Morientes was an awesome finisher, but was some way off his best even before we bought him. He was clearly in the downswing of his career. That's why we got him for so cheap - ~6 million. That's what you call a punt. Riera was good in his first season, he just turned out to be a bit of a loose-cannon and was benched. It wasn't because he wasn't playing well. He more than earned his wages. Keane wasn't even Benitez's real choice. Allegedly, Rafa had given a list of players for Parry to go after and Keane was near the bottom. Rafa had no control over how much we'd bid then and as later unfolded sold Keane ASAP to recoup much of that transfer back. It was one in a series of blunders Parry had made and that is why he left, and why Rafa moaned so much about getting control of the transfers. Parry allegedly messed up the possible transfers of Pato, Wilshire, Dani Alves and Vidic, to name some names that have been leaked - which is where this whole thing regarding money stems from.

Not only did Torres flourish, so did Crouch. Many laughed at Rafa when we bought him, but now he has a whole new respect in the league. Gerrard was never a 20+ goal season player and is on record crediting Rafa for improving him. Then there are buys like Reina, Agger, Skrtel to a lesser extent, Aurelio, Mascherano, Benayoun, Maxi, Garcia, even Kuyt who has a pretty good record as a winger, and you can see it's not as the xenophobic media paint it. You don't get to two CL finals in 3 years, consistent top 4 finishes with the highest runner-up total in EPL history if you are a bad manager getting bad players. You aren't snapped up by the #1 team in Europe if you have no clue.

For reasons aplenty, it was time for him to go. But things like his spending, some of the ordeals he had with the owners are inanely misreported. That is why you had so many of the fans back Rafa, because few knew what was really going on. There is a rumour going round that the reason the owners were so desperate to push Rafa out was that apparently he had veto power against player sales. Now, there may be nothing stopping the owners selling up some of our prized assets.
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
It is Rafa's team and it is the same team that, bar last year, regularly got deep into the CL and challenged for the title just over a year ago. So, although it isn't a squad brimming with talent like Chelsea or United's, it's one that didn't cost near as much.

There were many middling players bought, but that's precisely because we didn't have the money, and if we did, we'd only be fixing 1 problem while leaving another bare.

You're XI is nonsensical because half the players are still at the club. Cavalieri, Aquilani, Johnson, Babel and Riera are still there. We paid over the odds for Johnson, but the others were worth it and will garner a similar value if resold.
Re Pt 1- Do you really have any idea what United spent compared to Liverpool during Benitez's tenure? Benitez bought players like Harry Redknapp on speed. Ferguson spent less and on far fewer players. Benitez spent more but did so on tens of average players. Ferguson spent a little less but focused on quality.

Re Pt 2- Whether they are at the club or not, my point is that they are all Benitez signings and if you spend over 100 mil on a team you would expect to be able to put 11 good players on the pitch.
 

Furball

Evil Scotsman
It's not basically the same squad when he's sold arguably the most important player in the squad (Xabi Alonso) and replaced him with a crock.

Regardless of the fact that football is a squad game, every side in the world will have one or two key individuals who can't be easily replaced.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Re Pt 1- Do you really have any idea what United spent compared to Liverpool during Benitez's tenure? Benitez bought players like Harry Redknapp on speed. Ferguson spent less and on far fewer players. Benitez spent more but did so on tens of average players. Ferguson spent a little less but focused on quality.

Re Pt 2- Whether they are at the club or not, my point is that they are all Benitez signings and if you spend over 100 mil on a team you would expect to be able to put 11 good players on the pitch.
1) Ferguson built a chunk of his side before Benitez even was coach and spent ruthlessly. That is why when you compare the two squads United's is worth much much more than Liverpool's. It doesn't get any simpler than that. It's basic math. They have 3 players alone that cost about what our entire starting XI does (Ferdinand, Rooney and Berbatov).

2) The point is you cannot call something a waste when it is still being used. Aquilani just had a season full of injuries but is a quality player. Johnson was one of our better players this year. Babel is young and has immense potential, even if he has been up and down a lot. To write this lot off just doesn't make sense. At worst, they could be sold a few million under what they were bought, but they are not wasted.

It's kind of like buying a house and saying you wasted money when if you want that money all you have to do is sell that house again. The money Benitez spent in the squad is still there. To say he wasted it would be if he had spent a mass amount on players and was at a loss of 100m when he sold them again.

How can anyone say Liverpool's current best XI isn't good?

1) Reina
2) Johnson
3) Carra
4) Agger
5) Insua
6) Aquilani
7) Mascherano
8) Maxi/Kuyt
9) Riera
10) Gerrard
11) Torres

You've also built a squad on fees paid towards several players over several years when many of the same players were bought on the sales of other players. Benitez never got that much to spend in one window or even two. The highest net spend he ever had in one year was 39 million which was the year he bought Mascherano, Babel and Torres - the sale of Torres alone could cover that.

It's not basically the same squad when he's sold arguably the most important player in the squad (Xabi Alonso) and replaced him with a crock.

Regardless of the fact that football is a squad game, every side in the world will have one or two key individuals who can't be easily replaced.
Xabi was good, but he was no Maradona. In fact, he wasn't even the best player that year. Gerrard was. Not only did he win the fans best player award he also won the LFC.tv journalist's awards. He won the FWA player of the year and came runner up to a sentimental choice in Giggs for the PFA player of the year. Suggesting that he was the difference between 2nd and 7th is inane. Especially since we had him for several years prior and we never got that high up.
 
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Furball

Evil Scotsman
Most important isn't the same as being the best.

Messi is Barcelona's best player. Xavi is their most important player.
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
1) Ferguson built a chunk of his side before Benitez even was coach and spent ruthlessly. That is why when you compare the two squads United's is worth much much more than Liverpool's. It doesn't get any simpler than that. It's basic math. They have 3 players alone that cost about what our entire starting XI does (Ferdinand, Rooney and Berbatov).

How can anyone say Liverpool's current best XI isn't good?

1) Reina
2) Johnson
3) Carra
4) Agger
5) Insua
6) Aquilani
7) Mascherano
8) Maxi/Kuyt
9) Riera
10) Gerrard
11) Torres
Especially since we had him for several years prior and we never got that high up.
Re pt 1: Since the start of the Prem in 92 Liverpool has spent £418,555,000. Man U has spent £419,350,000 on players. In that time period Liverpool has a net loss of £10,575,526 per season on player transfers and Man U has £6,784,737.

Since taking over Benitez spent 230 million which is more than Man U and bought approx 3 times as many players.

Man U have some expensive players but that doesnt mean they spend massively every season. Maybe the logic of spending 30 mil on 1 genuine star each season is better than spending 30 mil on 4 or 5 ordinary players every year.

Pt 2- It is a good team. Just not a very good team.
 
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Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Er yeah, sure. So would you explain why the season prior we were 4th? With him in the squad and all? Or like, any other season he was still in the squad? Come on, 2nd to 7th? Give me a break. He wasn't even nominated for the PFA team/player of the season. A player that is purported to be that important, yet there seemed to be a conspiracy against giving him any accolades.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Re pt 1: Since the start of the Prem in 92 Liverpool has spent £418,555,000. Man U has spent £419,350,000 on players. In that time period Liverpool has a net loss of £10,575,526 per season on player transfers and Man U has £6,784,737.

Since taking over Benitez spent 230 million which is more than Man U and bought approx 3 times as many players.

Man U have some expensive players but that doesant mean they spend massively every season. Maybe the logic of spending 30 mil on 1 genuine star each season is better than spending 30 mil on 4 or 5 ordinary players every year.

Pt 2- It is a good team. Just not a very good team.
1) You can't blame past managers ****-ups on Benitez. Someone like Souness spent like a madman and did poorly too. How does that relate to 2004 and Benitez coming in taking over the likes of Salif Diao, Djimi Traore and Neil Mellor? It doesn't really, unless you're arguing that Liverpool became a poorer club with inferior players when Benitez took up the job.

You are talking about Benitez and the money he spent on the squad, therefore you can't start totalling Ferguson's purchases when Benitez arrived because he made many expensive purchases before Benitez even heard about Anfield. That's why I told you to look at the value (the prices paid) of the players in United's team compared to those in Benitez's. It's not even an argument, Ferguson has spent much more. Not only that, he spent much more in the 90s breaking all kinds of transfer records and bought new players with the sale of all these highly rated players. Benitez spent 230, but he sold 155 worth, so in reality he had 75m net. There's a difference between having to sell players to buy others and being rich enough to just add players to your squad one by one. The players we bought for 15-20m were expected to be pivotal when United have players ranging from 15-30m warming the bench. There is a gross discrepancy there. I think even Tottenham have a higher squad value these days.

In only 2 years did Benitez's net spend exceed 16m net. That means most of his players were funded by the sales of other players.

1st season: 11.3m
Costliest buy: Alonso - 10.5m

2nd season: 25.7m
Costliest buy: Crouch - 7m

3rd season: 15.7m
Costliest buy: Kuyt - 9m

4th season: 37.9m
Costliest buy: Torres - 20m

5th season: 6.3m
Costliest buy: Keane - 19m

6th season: - 4m
Costliest buy: Aquilani - 17m

That, in a nutshell, explains why United have a superior squad. There were no squandered fortunes; or any fortunes to begin with. What was invest in the squad is still largely still in the squad and, as said about 100 times by now, can be recouped totally with the sale of 2-3 players.

2) It was basically the same team that were runner-up just a year ago. And many of our inferior XIs won titles like the CL and went to the final again. For me, we were always punching above our weight with Rafa. We regularly got top 4 with squads even inferior to this.

----

For the record, none of the above is to back up Benitez to show that somehow he was a miracle worker, but just to dispel a lot of nonsense about the guy and that Roy really doesn't have it as bad as people are making it out and if anything the lowering of expectations are due to Roy himself not being capable of achieving any better - or hasn't shown anything thus far that would indicate it in his long managerial career. The fact that we have totally different standards for the two is what bothers me. If Benitez had stayed, top 4 was minimum; with Roy we should be oh so thankful!
 
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Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
Well I can name you 3 years where the net spend was over 25 mil (even if we exclude 04/05 when he was manager but Cisse arrived as a Houllier signing)

You keeping moving the goalposts with your posts. First you say he had to spend because United had spent more than Liverpool which is not true. Now you are blaming the players he inherited which are the same players that won the Champions League for him.

Yes he got a decent chunk back on players but not an unusual amount and he still spent a fortune which gained a negative net sum in the finances and the League table and so many players that came and went that there was no continuity. He spent money but didnt spend it wisely. He spent it wildly with little rhyme or reason.

Your previous point that his highest ever spend in a season was 39 mil is completely correct in a year where he spent 70 mil on players. Since when was that a small amount and you mention you could regain that by selling Torres. How the **** is that good business? Spend a **** load and then have to sell one of the few star players to cover the **** up. :blink: Also, you mention United spending lots of money, well they have never had a net spend close to 39 mil.

If you want Liverpool to copy the old mad years at Chelsea and the current craziness at Man City then I dont know what to tell you.
 
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Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Well I can name you 3 years where the net spend was over 25 mil (even if we exclude 04/05 when he was manager but Cisse arrived as a Houllier signing)
Which years?

You keeping moving the goalposts with your posts. First you say he had to spend because United had spent more than Liverpool which is not true. Now you are blaming the players he inherited which are the same players that won the Champions League for him.
You must have misunderstood me. I said in order to compete you have to spend money and improve your squad. Resting on your laurels not improving the squad when you're not winning anything already whilst the others who have won it are getting better players is just asking to get your ass kicked.

The players he inherited were never a big factor really. Other than Gerrard, Garcia and a sturdy defence we had little else. It's akin to saying Greece won their title at Euro2004 because their players were good. They only performed well because Rafa organised them. The grand majority of them never reached those heights again and once sold never attracted high fees or big clubs. Whilst Rafa went to another CL final 2 years later with a squad much more his.

Yes he got a decent chunk back on players but not an unusual amount and he still spent a fortune which gained a negative net sum in the finances and the League table and so many players that came and went that there was no continuity. He spent money but didnt spend it wisely. He spent it wildly with little rhyme or reason.
He spent 230m across 57 players. That's about 4m per player. Which is more or less right as most of the players he bought (over 40) cost about 0-6 million. That's the thing, when you need to replace a large amount of players, you will have to divide the money. The kind of money the grand majority of those players were purchased on attributed to what you would call punts. It's much easier when you have a settled squad a la United and can spend 15 million on one single player, whereas in our case we didn't have a settled squad and we took punts that came off, and some that didn't.

And of course he didn't get an unusual amount back: his best buys are still at the club.

Your previous point that his highest ever spend in a season was 39 mil is completely correct in a year where he spent 70 mil on players. Since when was that a small amount and you mention you could regain that by selling Torres. How the **** is that good business? Spend a **** load and then have to sell one of the few star players to cover the **** up. :blink: Also, you mention United spending lots of money, well they have never had a net spend close to 39 mil.

If you want Liverpool to copy the old mad years at Chelsea and the current craziness at Man City then I dont know what to tell you.
70 million is quite a bit to spend, but when you sell several players to fund it, then it becomes quite relevant. We did not have a Cristiano Ronaldo like sale, where we got a mass of money for 1 player and hence cut the net spend. We sold several players who would have to be replaced by several others. In that window we got 3 big signings in Babel, Mascherano and Torres. Two are world-class and are highly sought after. Babel is still a diamond in the rough. In that window, we also got 3 other quality signings for relatively cheap in Benayoun, Insua and Skrtel. All first team players who have been very good contributors to the team. How can you criticise the spending in that instance? The one time he had a bit of money to spend and he got 6 quality additions.

United that same year spent 61 million pounds but recovered 35 to make a net spend of about 25. Now, this is bigger than Liverpool's net spend in several ways: United's squad has been an ongoing conveyor belt of quality talent even before Ferguson took charge. It already was an impressive squad that won the title a year prior. It's also easier to recoup the money since they had better players to sell. Many of those players bought in that transfer window have been/were/are benchwarmers. That's the gulf between the sides.

Tomkins keeps mentioning Soccernomics, a book about spending and how it correlates with success. IIRC 89% of the time in England, the team with the biggest squad value and wage list wins the league. In Italy, they found that correlation to be higher. Right now, we probably rank 6th (Chelsea, City, United, Arsenal, Tottenham before us). Maybe we do need some Chelsea-like spending, because we sure have not had it in the last decade.
 

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