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Thread: *Official* English Football Season 2010-11

  1. #751
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    O'Neill spent a net total of 81 million pounds in the 4 years he's been at Villa - almost the same as what Benitez got in 6 years at Liverpool. That's a heck of a lot of money for a team like Villa. Agree with GF here in that I don't think he is a top 4 manager - the kind you give the reigns to, to take you into Europe and hopefully win the competition. Think he did well overall but certainly was backed well by Lerner, so don't really think leaving was a good move if the issue was more money.
    Last edited by Ikki; 09-08-2010 at 03:03 PM.
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  2. #752
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    O'Neill spent a net total of 81 million pounds in the 4 years he's been at Villa - almost the same as what Benitez got in 6 years at Liverpool. That's a heck of a lot of money for a team like Villa. Agree with GF here in that I don't think he is a top 4 manager - the kind you give the reigns to, to take you into Europe and hopefully win the competition. Think he did well overall but certainly was backed well by Lerner, so don't really think leaving was a good move if the issue was more money.
    16,460,000 per season is what he averages.

    Transfer League Managers Table | Premier League Transfer Leagues

    And with what he had their before he went there ,he has done very well in getting them into contention for European places and has also assembled a young squad with a british core to it.
    They can reclaim more than half of that 82 million by Selling Milner and Young and they would still be better off than when he came to Villa.

  3. #753
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    Quote Originally Posted by GingerFurball View Post
    He's done well, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have his limitations.

    If I was a chairman and wanted a manager to guide my side to being comfortable top half finishers/Europa contenders, O'Neill would be one of the managers at the top of my shortlist.

    If I had any ambitions of breaking into the top 4, I'd stay well clear of O'Neill.

    TBH, the more I think about this, the more I agree.

    If any team is in a position to break into the top 4, along with Everton and Spurs, its Villa, yet they've never kicked on, never really made that win or bust move transfer wise. Sorta consolidated them as a side that qualifies for Europe, without pulling them anywhere near a push for a CL bearth.

    Apart from winning the coin toss that is the SPL a few times, and one good run in Europe (though in the runners up cup, with a shocking euro away record), all he's really got is credentials in League Cup runs.
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  4. #754
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpr View Post
    TBH, the more I think about this, the more I agree.

    If any team is in a position to break into the top 4, along with Everton and Spurs, its Villa, yet they've never kicked on, never really made that win or bust move transfer wise. Sorta consolidated them as a side that qualifies for Europe, without pulling them anywhere near a push for a CL bearth.

    Apart from winning the coin toss that is the SPL a few times, and one good run in Europe (though in the runners up cup, with a shocking euro away record), all he's really got is credentials in League Cup runs.
    To be fair to O'Neill, his shocking away record in Europe was in the Champions League. His UEFA Cup run included a 2-0 win at Blackburn, 3-2 defeat against Stuttgart (Celtic were 3-1 up from the 1st leg and went 2-0 up after about 15 minutes), a 2-0 win at Anfield and a 1-0 win in Boavista, both after drawing the home leg 1-1. His home record in Europe included beating Porto, Juventus, Lyon, and drawing with Bayern Munich and AC Milan. IIRC only Barcelona in 04/05 went to Parkhead and won in the CL proper.

    However, he's too limited to do anything else - check where he's signed players from. In his entire career, I think he's signed a grand total of 6 players from clubs outwith the UK and didn't have a tremendous record at bringing young talent through at Celtic - no genuinely top 4 manager without a bottomless pit of cash would have those limitations, and that's not to mention how limited O'Neill is tactically.


  5. #755
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    Quote Originally Posted by sledger View Post
    If I was a Rangers fan with a chip on my shoulder I would probably make a post like this.
    Has nothing to do with his Celtic past, I hate O'Neill because he was a bigoted arsehole who set Scottish football back at least a decade wrt to the sectarian problem. The fact that he made Celtic a force as well is another reason I despise him, but I will grudgingly accept he's a good manager.

    If I was chairman of say, Wigan or Stoke, teams who have had a couple of years in the Premier League and wanted to kick on to become a solid top half side and maybe challenge for the Europa, I can't think of many managers who'd be better for the job than O'Neill. If I was Tottenham, Man City, or Villa, perennial top 7 sides who want to break the top 4, I wouldn't touch O'Neill - because he doesn't have it in him to get his sides to reach that level.

    edit: or what Gabriele Marcotti said.
    Last edited by Furball; 09-08-2010 at 04:08 PM.

  6. #756
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpr View Post
    If any team is in a position to break into the top 4, along with Everton and Spurs, its Villa, yet they've never kicked on, never really made that win or bust move transfer wise.
    How much of that is down to O'Neill and how much Lerner though?
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  7. #757
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    Quote Originally Posted by marc71178 View Post
    How much of that is down to O'Neill and how much Lerner though?
    A lot down to O'Neill: he's blown a lot of cash on some spectacularly average players, because for some reason he's unwilling to shop abroad. In terms of net spend I'm pretty sure only Manchester City have spent more than Aston Villa while O'Neill's had the job.

  8. #758
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    Jeez guys, Villa finished 16th the year before he joined. The fact that people are now bemoaning his inability to finish above Liverpool or Arsenal speaks volumes for just how good a job he did with the club. He was only even there for four years! I'm not sure there's a manager in the world who could take a club from 16th to the top four in the space of four years. Fair point on his inability to look outside his comfort zone with regards to players or tactics, but his bare achievements were fantastic. And he was pretty unlucky not to win a trophy last season, given the Vidic incident in the final.

    My biggest criticism of O'Neill would be that he's leaving rather than trying to take the club to the next step.
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  9. #759
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uppercut View Post
    Jeez guys, Villa finished 16th the year before he joined. The fact that people are now bemoaning his inability to finish above Liverpool or Arsenal speaks volumes for just how good a job he did with the club. He was only even there for four years! I'm not sure there's a manager in the world who could take a club from 16th to the top four in the space of four years. Fair point on his inability to look outside his comfort zone with regards to players or tactics, but his bare achievements were fantastic. And he was pretty unlucky not to win a trophy last season, given the Vidic incident in the final.

    My biggest criticism of O'Neill would be that he's leaving rather than trying to take the club to the next step.
    Apart from this 'genius'



    Ok I know it is not really a fair comparison.

    Anyway I largely agree with you, look at how much money teams like Sunderland and West Ham spent on tranfers and wages without getting anywhere near the top 4.
    Last edited by Pothas; 09-08-2010 at 05:22 PM.

  10. #760
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    Villa were a yo-yo side, could push for Europe or implode, that was down to poor managers. Certainly during the Premiership era they've been a club that should be top 6/8, with a solid fanbase and decent squads (Their Prem record backs this up, the only seasons they've finished out of the prem top 8 are 94, 95, 03, 05, 06, 07, the last being O'Neils first season)

    O'Neil brought them stability, and consistency, however he's not really taken them up a gear beyond what they should've been achieving anyway. They've perennially had the squad thats said 'Europe is a must', yet he's never gone for the players that would try and push on.

    As Marcotti says in the article above
    he's bought British players, mostly young ones, for which he's been widely praised. But again, it's not as if he's unearthed gems, signing some teenage left back from Colchester who then goes on to become the next Stuart Pearce or an underrated striker from Reading whose career he helps get back on track. Most of his British signings are fairly obvious ones - well-known players at market prices, whether it's Stewart Downing or Ashley Young or James Milner. There's no great nous or imagination there, it's basically a case of bringing in brand names. And paying accordingly for the privilege

    Not saying he's a bad manager, and I personally like him, but he's not exactly excelled at Villa. And pointing a finger at Lerner just deflects criticism for me, because his predecessors all had Deadly Doug as chairman, yet still managed the same......

    Interestingly, I think O'Neil might be one of the few British bosses who'd work OK under the Continental system of being a first team coach, with a General Manager/Director of Football conducting transfers/scoutings.... So long as he had control over training/first XI/squad management, he'd do well with someone else giving him the players/future stars

  11. #761
    cpr
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    oh and Uppercut, the 2 seasons after that 16th place when O'Neil came in they finished 11th and 6th, the two seasons before that 16th place they finished 10th and 6th..... Its not like he dragged the club out of the mire, he helped them recover from one bad season

  12. #762
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Uppercut's Avatar
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    His work in the transfer market hasn't been especially great. I don't think that matters in the slightest though, really. Mourinho's transfer dealings at Chelsea were pretty average too. The end justifies the means- Villa are a hugely better team now than they were when he left, and improved with each passing season. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that they would have continued to improve had he remained there, he only ever took the club in one direction.

    Of course, now we'll never know. Seems to me that he's shirked the challenge somewhat.

  13. #763
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpr View Post
    oh and Uppercut, the 2 seasons after that 16th place when O'Neil came in they finished 11th and 6th, the two seasons before that 16th place they finished 10th and 6th..... Its not like he dragged the club out of the mire, he helped them recover from one bad season
    They were pretty rubbish though- compare their squad when he took over to their squad now- there's quite a difference.

  14. #764
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpr View Post
    Interestingly, I think O'Neil might be one of the few British bosses who'd work OK under the Continental system of being a first team coach, with a General Manager/Director of Football conducting transfers/scoutings.... So long as he had control over training/first XI/squad management, he'd do well with someone else giving him the players/future stars
    Haha, funny you should say that. The season before O'Neill got the Celtic job, their set up was John Barnes as first team coach, with Kenny Dalgleish as the DoF. Under Fergus McCann in the late 90s they'd experimented with the same set up - Jock Brown was plucked from a commentary job on BBC Scotland to be DoF when Wim Jansen was appointed in 1997, and Jo Venglos might have had one as well in 1998/99. When O'Neill was asked by the media up here not long after getting the Celtic job if he could see himself working under a DoF, given that that had been the setup at Celtic for the previous 3 seasons, his response was that he'd "rather be dead."

    O'Neill's management style just wouldn't sit well with a DoF, he needs complete control of all aspects of the football club wrt to signings and contracts. It's why Celtic went into such a massive period of downsizing under Strachan - O'Neill had left Celtic with an ageing squad full of players on silly contracts (Bobo Balde earning 30,000 a week with a 1m "loyalty bonus" being due upon completion/renegotiation of his contract being one such financial masterstroke). He's also not reknowned for being ultra dedicated when it comes to training - it was well known at Celtic that O'Neill had little to do with the everyday training at the club - I'm pretty sure Neil Lennon has passed comment on O'Neill not being around the club a great deal towards the end of his tenure.

    I actually think he'd be very well suited to international management. He'd possibly be the perfect replacement for Fabio Capello actually, thinking back to what I said in the English national team thread about an ideal international manager. He fits the bill perfectly in terms of his man management abilities, he gets players to run through brick walls for him, and while he's limited tactically, he's not a complete ****** tactically and his sides are generally very well organised.
    Last edited by Furball; 09-08-2010 at 05:48 PM.

  15. #765
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Furball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uppercut View Post
    His work in the transfer market hasn't been especially great. I don't think that matters in the slightest though, really. Mourinho's transfer dealings at Chelsea were pretty average too. The end justifies the means- Villa are a hugely better team now than they were when he left, and improved with each passing season. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that they would have continued to improve had he remained there, he only ever took the club in one direction.

    Of course, now we'll never know. Seems to me that he's shirked the challenge somewhat.
    IMO he's hit the same glass ceiling he hit at Celtic. The funding from board level dried up after his 2nd season up here, and while he took them to a UEFA Cup final, his team gradually declined in his 4th season, then declined spectacularly in his final season after he lost Henrik Larsson.

    At Villa he's improved them enormously, but he's had a lot of investment to achieve that, and apparently wouldn't get the sort of investment he might have been looking for to take Villa to the next level. To say they've only gone in one direction is wrong, they've plateaud somewhat for 18 months. In 2008/09, they had a real shout at pipping Arsenal to 4th place, only to tail off horribly at the end of the season. They didn't hit those heights at all last season IMO.
    Last edited by Furball; 09-08-2010 at 05:47 PM.



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