You know what really grinds my sporting gears?

[dontcloseyoureyes]

The big four is in my opinion a problem, but that problem pales in comparison to the gulf between the Prem and Championship. Let's stop the Premiership from becoming a virtual closed shop with 10-15 permanent clubs and 5 or so ping ponging ones, then we can talk about the big four being a problem.

Very true.

 

[Langeveldt]

Don't actually care about the big four. Premiership football is for the most part utterly soulless and best off enjoyed far removed with an eye on taking the piss out of the one-eyed, no-brained glory support on days like two weeks ago, when Chelsea fell to Burnley in the League Cup...

I know that the passion and excitement I felt during the playoff run-in - I mean, I'm still feeling the hairs on my neck stand up as I write about it now - was a hundred times more than a make-believe Man Utd fan will ever take from whatever number league title it is. That's football: club and community. Not just winning.

Yeah true, not that it would ever happen, but I would kind of be disappointed if the Argyle went up into the Premiership.. Not only would we shoot right back down again, but it would also mean us having to play in one of the most over-rated divisions in the world..

 

[Langeveldt]

The Haka
Gets my goat.. Yes every country has a show of national pride and cultural significance before the start of a rugby match, it's called the National Anthems.. When NZ have as many World Cups as they do ceremonial acts of toughness before a rugby game, I'll start listening to the inevitable tirade thats going to come my way in 5...4...3

 

[Tom Halsey]

Really? I'm not even an NBA fan, but check out the last 10 NBA championship finals:

2007-08 Boston Celtics def Los Angeles Lakers
2006-07 San Antonio Spurs def Cleveland Cavaliers
2005-06 Miami Heat def Dallas Mavericks
2004-05 San Antonio Spurs def Detroit Pistons
2003-04 Detroit Pistons def Los Angeles Lakers
2002-03 San Antonio Spurs def New Jersey Nets
2001-02 Los Angeles Lakers def New Jersey Nets
2000-01 Los Angeles Lakers def Philadelphia 76ers
1999-00 Los Angeles Lakers def Indiana Pacers
1998-99 San Antonio Spurs def New York Knicks

I count 11 different teams making the Championship finals over the last decade.

Let's try NFL now.

January 31, 1999 Denver Broncos (2) 34–19 Atlanta Falcons
January 30, 2000 St. Louis Rams 23–16 Tennessee Titansc[
January 28, 2001 Baltimore Ravensc[›] 34–7 New York Giants
February 3, 2002 New England Patriots 20–17 St. Louis Rams
January 26, 2003 Tampa Bay Buccaneers 48–21 Oakland Raiders
February 1, 2004 New England Patriots (2) 32–29 Carolina Panthers
February 6, 2005 New England Patriots (3) 24–21 Philadelphia Eagles
February 5, 2006 Pittsburgh Steelers (5)c[›] 21–10 Seattle Seahawks
February 4, 2007 Indianapolis Colts (2) 29–17 Chicago Bears
February 3, 2008 New York Giants (3)c[›] 17–14 New England Patriots

I count 15 different teams there!

I'd love to know the "top 2" of the EPL over the last decade, and how many teams have made it in that period.

Misleading - that's all knockout from what I can tell, which is obviously going to lead to a more randomised winner/runner-up. You can't really compare that to a league - though you could compare it with the FA Cup.

FWIW, 11 different teams have made the FA Cup final since 1999.

 

[Tom Halsey]

As for the debate in general, I don't buy the idea that it's impossible to break into the big four, that the big four will remain the same. Indeed, it's changed significantly since the Premiership began - of the sides that were title challengers in 92/93, only United remain. Of the current big four, Liverpool came 8th in 1993 (IIRC), Arsenal were about mid-table, and so were Chelsea, though they're a bit of a special case tbf.

 

[roseboy64]

TBH, the big 4 apart from Chelsea have earned their way in there. Liverpool's dominance in the 70s and 80s gained them fans and so too Man Utd's in the 90s. The managers built good teams and won trophies and so gained money. Man Utd traditionally have huge support regardless of league position. Don't remember which season but when they were in the 2nd division in the 70s for one season they had the highest attendances. Various factors have lead to the big 4 gaining massive support, from the Busby Babes to Liverpool's dominance to Arsenal's football to Chelsea's money. Pretty much they've earned the right to be in there. When other teams had good enough teams they featured in the top 4 regularly as with Newcastle in the 90s.

Also, the only example I can think of as a salary cap in football is the MLS and pretty much the league's stale until the playoffs. Similar case in teh other American sports IMO. MLB and NBA only really become exciting around playoff time. The European leagues are pretty much exciting all season long.

 

[Magrat Garlick]

Misleading - that's all knockout from what I can tell, which is obviously going to lead to a more randomised winner/runner-up. You can't really compare that to a league - though you could compare it with the FA Cup.

Yeah, well, I tried that argument.

Turns out, if you look up the two best regular season records, there's 12 teams that have been in the top two in the NBA over the past decade, and 15 in the NFL (though with the short season and imbalanced schedule the NFL will always be a tad random).

As to the "it won't stay the same forever because it hasn't in the past" argument; before 1992 finances in England were largely dependent on attendance, and whatever merchandising income was available was locally generated. This is no longer the case: successful organisations have been set up to milk foreign markets, or teams are fuelled with profits from other areas of business, ensuring that even total incompetents can lead teams to runner-up spots in the league and Champions League.

 

[Magrat Garlick]

Also, the only example I can think of as a salary cap in football is the MLS and pretty much the league's stale until the playoffs. Similar case in teh other American sports IMO. MLB and NBA only really become exciting around playoff time. The European leagues are pretty much exciting all season long.

This would be because of the playoff system, not because of the salary cap.

 

[Tom Halsey]

As to the "it won't stay the same forever because it hasn't in the past" argument; before 1992 finances in England were largely dependent on attendance, and whatever merchandising income was available was locally generated. This is no longer the case: successful organisations have been set up to milk foreign markets, or teams are fuelled with profits from other areas of business, ensuring that even total incompetents can lead teams to runner-up spots in the league and Champions League.

That doesn't explain why it's changed since 1992, which is what I was getting at.

Fair play with the regular season stuff - didn't know that.

 

[Magrat Garlick]

That doesn't explain why it's changed since 1992, which is what I was getting at.

These things can not be instantaneous - the big clubs needed a few years to get top players out of their current contracts and build up an advantage in transfer funds. The only change since 1998 came about because of Abramovich, and the next change will come about when Abramovich draws out.

 

[Langeveldt]

These things can not be instantaneous - the big clubs needed a few years to get top players out of their current contracts and build up an advantage in transfer funds. The only change since 1998 came about because of Abramovich, and the next change will come about when Abramovich draws out.

He will just be replaced by someone else with limitless money

 

[BoyBrumby]

These things can not be instantaneous - the big clubs needed a few years to get top players out of their current contracts and build up an advantage in transfer funds. The only change since 1998 came about because of Abramovich, and the next change will come about when Abramovich draws out.

I think, potentially, Citeh now have the financial backing to break in to the top 4. So them being newly minted is arguably the next sea change.

They're obviously hamstrung by being, well, Citeh but if yer Arabs come good with the sort of sums being mooted they'll suceed in spite of themselves.

 

[Tom Halsey]

The only change since 1998 came about because of Abramovich, and the next change will come about when Abramovich draws out.

Newcastle and Leeds have both been one of the top three or four since then only to go down the drain. Like GIMH, I don't think the current top four came about until about 2005, personally.

 

[GIMH]

The year Liverpool won the European Cup last, most pundits referred to a 'big three' for most of the season, being Arsenal, Chelsea and Manchester United. I remember it well because during the first knockout round of the Champions League, Arsenal, Man united and Chelsea all failed to win, Liverpool did win, got a txt from my Dad, "big three my ****ing arse."

Might not have actually been the first knockout round, it was whenever Chelsea got beat by Barcelona, but wound up winning the second leg.

 

[Langeveldt]

The Haka
Gets my goat.. Yes every country has a show of national pride and cultural significance before the start of a rugby match, it's called the National Anthems.. When NZ have as many World Cups as they do ceremonial acts of toughness before a rugby game, I'll start listening to the inevitable tirade thats going to come my way in 5...4...3

And now there is an etiquette to how you react to the Haka.. Sorry but this isn't a pantomime, it's a rugby game, I don't see why any side should have to be briefed as to what to do during NZ's war dance.. Can't they just stick to an anthem?

http://www.sport24.co.za/Content/Ru...3/01-01-0001 12-01/Nonu warns England on Haka

 

[PhoenixFire]

Why the hell should people have to stand there and be shouted at?? Seems crazy for mine.

 

[Langeveldt]

Why the hell should people have to stand there and be shouted at?? Seems crazy for mine.

Yeah not buying it for mine.. Fully expect a tirade of abuse from Kiwis telling me how it's traditional and a Holy Grail.. Well fact of the matter is I have a load of admiration for NZ as a nation and a rugby team without a war dance before kickoff..

 

[sledger]

Haha, tell them dancing is for girls.

 

[Smudge]

And now there is an etiquette to how you react to the Haka.. Sorry but this isn't a pantomime, it's a rugby game, I don't see why any side should have to be briefed as to what to do during NZ's war dance.. Can't they just stick to an anthem?

http://www.sport24.co.za/Content/Ru...3/01-01-0001 12-01/Nonu warns England on Haka

Yeah not buying it for mine.. Fully expect a tirade of abuse from Kiwis telling me how it's traditional and a Holy Grail.. Well fact of the matter is I have a load of admiration for NZ as a nation and a rugby team without a war dance before kickoff..

Au contraire. I found the comments from Henry and Nonu pretty precious if you ask me. If we have the right to perform the haka before the game, the opposition has every right to respond however they like (within reason - ie. not "tooling up and attacking with knives").

That said, I do chuckle how the haka issue always tends to rear its head just before an English game - lovely diversion from the Fleet Street ****wits who don't want to discuss the massive inadequacies of their sides. And I chuckle even more how rarely the war dances of Samoa, Tonga and Fiji are ever mentioned during these discussions on the appropriateness of the haka - probably because England don't have any trouble beating them.

 

[Langeveldt]

Au contraire. I found the comments from Henry and Nonu pretty precious if you ask me. If we have the right to perform the haka before the game, the opposition has every right to respond however they like (within reason - ie. not "tooling up and attacking with knives").

That said, I do chuckle how the haka issue always tends to rear its head just before an English game - lovely diversion from the Fleet Street ****wits who don't want to discuss the massive inadequacies of their sides. And I chuckle even more how rarely the war dances of Samoa, Tonga and Fiji are ever mentioned during these discussions on the appropriateness of the haka - probably because England don't have any trouble beating them.

I think they will be all too keen to discuss the inadequacies of their side come Saturday evening.. Think we might have a bloodbath on our hands