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  1. #2671
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightprowler10 View Post
    I think that's understating it a bit actually. Their athleticism was comparable to superstars today. Russell was the same height as LeBron IIRC and had his vertical as well. Whereas Wilt was 7' with the same vertical. Just ridiculous. Even more ridiculous is that Russell was an undersized C compared many other bigs of the era yet dominated them all, including Wilt.
    No, he didn't. His team may have won more trophies, but he definitely did not dominate Wilt. Wilt scored a ****load against him and out-rebounded him regularly. IIRC they have almost 150 games against each other and Wilt averaged almost 30 points and 30 rebounds a game against him.

    The whole "athletic black men playing against slow white guys" thing is overplayed IMO. Artis Gilmore was a great specimen as well and played in a similar era, but never played at the same level as those two. I have no doubt guys like Wilt and Russell would dominate if they played today (just not to the same level). They were simply extremely intelligent when it came to rebounding and defense (except Wilt could never figure out how to win!). Honestly believe Russell would make Dwight his bitch with his mind games.
    I am not sure how much weight you can put on it; but Wilt and Russell have an interview on YT where they say players of their own era were actually physically tougher.
    ★★★★★

  2. #2672
    International Coach duffer's Avatar
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    Has anyone looked at the numbers of their teamates?

  3. #2673
    Global Moderator Fusion's Avatar
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    So the Mavs finally realized there was no point in playing Odom and have agreed to part with him. What a colossal waste of time for both parties. His heart is clearly not into playing basketball at the moment and there was no player I detested more for his lack of effort than Odom. Good luck to him next season and good riddance.

  4. #2674
    Cricketer Of The Year Anil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion View Post
    So the Mavs finally realized there was no point in playing Odom and have agreed to part with him. What a colossal waste of time for both parties. His heart is clearly not into playing basketball at the moment and there was no player I detested more for his lack of effort than Odom. Good luck to him next season and good riddance.
    i don't think it was because his heart was not into basketball, for mine he just became too attached to the lakers and didn't want to play anywhere else...seems to be a hyper-emotional guy, certainly not the best example of professionalism...based on what happened next, even his demand to be traded was a completely emotional reaction which he probably regretted as soon as it actually happened...
    Quote Originally Posted by FRAZ View Post
    very very close friend of mine is an Arab Christian and he speaks Arabic too and the visible hidden filth shows the mentality which may never change .....
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    AAooouchh !!!!!
    I still remember that zipper accident of mine when I was in kindergarten ..... (Thing is OK I repeat thing is OK now )!!!


  5. #2675
    Global Moderator Fusion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anil View Post
    i don't think it was because his heart was not into basketball, for mine he just became too attached to the lakers and didn't want to play anywhere else...seems to be a hyper-emotional guy, certainly not the best example of professionalism...based on what happened next, even his demand to be traded was a completely emotional reaction which he probably regretted as soon as it actually happened...
    I agree with you. I was being kind to Odom when I said his heart wasn't into playing basketball. Like you said, he just didn't want to play for anyone besides the Lakers. For a professional athlete (one who was the 6th man of the year to boot) to put up that sorry display night in and night out was inexcusable IMO. I have never detested a Mavs player more than I did Odom (and I have some sorry ones to choose from!).

  6. #2676
    International Coach duffer's Avatar
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    They're listing him as inactive in the hope of trading him, but where is he going to go? If he wasn't happy at the defending champions and a team who really wanted him where will he be happy again? He's not going back to the Lakers. This guy is done unless he has an epiphany of sorts sometime soon. Feel sorry for the Mavs, he should've been a great replacement/upgrade for Caron.

  7. #2677
    Global Moderator Fusion's Avatar
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    He's probably going to be traded at the end of season along with a draft pick. Hence the **** will probably cost the Mavs two first round draft picks! I can't describe how much that annoys me.

  8. #2678
    Global Moderator nightprowler10's Avatar
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    Sucks for the Mavs but you have to wonder if there is deeper issue at play here. Didn't he just have to deal with some rough personal stuff in off season? Would explain why he got so emotional after trade talks.
    RIP Craigos

  9. #2679
    Global Moderator nightprowler10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dontcloseyoureyes View Post
    Comparable to the superstars today is pretty much what I meant, though tbh I think you're overstating their athleticism anyway. Comparing general sport science now to what it was then as well as health and nutrition standards, the overall level of fitness and athleticism is a lot higher than it was then. Scrubs like Gerald Green aren't superstars but their athleticism is out of the building.

    And the race angle really isn't overplayed, it's the truth. The game was supremely different then to how it is now, it was thought about differently and coached differently. African American players were still frowned upon and not given prominent roles (if any at all) in college and in sports. Offences were funnelled through jump shooters and passing the ball, away from the strengths of the more athletic black players of the time. Wilt and Bill were the players that changed that (especially Wilt) and because of them (and following them, Kareem, Dr. J, Frazier etc) the game has changed to what it is today.

    I don't disagree about Russell and Dwight (I think Dwight would be a blubbering mess after facing either of them) but they wouldn't put up the insane numbers now that they did then because the general stand of fitness and athleticism makes points harder to score and rebounds harder to get. There's small forwards who can guard centers now, there's point guards who can get you 10 rebounds a game. It's a different animal now.
    Good post. I still maintain that Wilt at least was as athletic as most players today, which is why people of his time considered him a freak of nature. How many guys playing in the NBA right now do you (hypothetically) see guarding Kareem and blocking his skyhook? Hell, Wilt was well in to his 30s when he was swatting away the unstoppable shot.

    As for your last paragraph, in my mind, if a guy like Kevin Love (unathletic, doesn't exactly live in the paint) can lead the league in rebounding and constantly have 20+ rebounds in a game, why can't guys like Wilt and Russell get similar numbers to what they were getting then? Completely agree on the points though.

  10. #2680
    Global Moderator nightprowler10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    No, he didn't. His team may have won more trophies, but he definitely did not dominate Wilt. Wilt scored a ****load against him and out-rebounded him regularly. IIRC they have almost 150 games against each other and Wilt averaged almost 30 points and 30 rebounds a game against him.
    This is gonna seem like a cop out, but by Wilt's own admission, Russell always let Wilt play his game and rack up statistics while the C's beat Wilt's team in the playoffs. Russell knew that Wilt lacked that winning mentality and took full advantage of it whenever he could.

  11. #2681
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    I think it is a huge cop-out. When you watch their games, and by their own admissions they went at it hard. I am not sure of the context of that statement.

    When you listen to them both it is Russell who is insecure and always uses his titles to stake his claim. But Wilt dominated Russell and everyone else. His teams were simply not good enough whereas Russell had HOFs on his bench IIRC. Wilt was really a marvellous player...incomparable. At least in his time, he had no real match-up...not even Russell IMO. Had he been in Russell's place they probably would have won even more. Unfortunately, Wilt was kinda seen as a bad guy and people begrudged him respect at times.
    Last edited by Ikki; 11-04-2012 at 06:05 AM.

  12. #2682
    Global Moderator nightprowler10's Avatar
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    Lol, Russell never sounded insecure to me. I do think he envied Wilt's natural talent but Wilt in turn envied Russellís drive to win. I guess my point was that there was always more going on between the two than what the stats suggested.

    I couldnít disagree more with the rest of your post though. All the hall of famers on the Cís were good to excellent players, but not exactly champions or HOF worthy before they started playing with Russell. He made them better players, champions, and worthy of hall of fame, the same way Jordan made Pippen. He was the clear leader on that team and when Red retired, no one questioned his coach status. And IIRC, when he retired many of his HOFers were still playing and playing well, yet they didnít win again with that team. People didnít give Wilt anywhere near as much respect simply because he gave them reasons to not respect him. Everyone knew that Wilt was more about racking up stats and making himself look good rather than deferring to his teammates when necessary or even winning. Jerry West even came out and said after the í69 finals that heíd much rather be playing with Russell than Wilt. Simply put, Wilt had all the talent in the world but no drive, whereas Russell was athletic and gifted and coupled with the excellent bball IQ and an almost psychotic desire to win, he was a bonafide winner. To suggest that Wilt wouldíve done more with the same cast as Russell is ridiculous IMO. If you were to say that had Wilt had a similar cast and a different mind set early on in his career, sure. But that simply wasnít the case, and unfortunately for him, it took him a while to figure out what he needed to do to win.

  13. #2683
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    Yeh, we totally disagree there on a lot of points. The Celts did have lots of HOFs, IIRC 7 of them. He may have had a hand in them being better - and Russell loves to point it out (as I said, kinda insecure of his place IMO) - but it's a stretch to say that they were anything other than great teammates and the reason why his teams would regularly beat Wilt's. Against each other, Wilt outscored Russell, out-rebounded him, out-assisted him and even out-blocked him. It was the rest of his teammates that didn't do enough and not that Russell outplayed Wilt. Russell wasn't the all-round package to simply be helping his teammates be great IMO to give him that kind of credit. On the defensive end this argument has more merit.

    Jerry West's comment on Wilt was unfair. When told to, he scored, when told to pass more, he did so - 66-67 season he averaged 7.8 assists and a year later he lead the league in total assists. He did whatever was asked of him. Having said that, he may have not been so strident towards 'the cause' as Russell might have been. However, I stick to my statement re championships; Wilt was too damn good to not go into that team and still win those same titles. On the defensive end he was also incredible - even though Russell gets credited with changing the tactics with regards to defence. I remember reading that there are interviews where Wilt, to Russell's face and with no objection, claimed that he blocked 3 shots to every 1 that Russell did - although they didn't keep an official count back in those days.

    As I said, Wilt got a raw deal because he wasn't liked and Russell was. People may have not liked his flamboyance and were endeared to Russell's team-driven ethic. One year Russell didn't even make the All-NBA team yet won the MVP over Wilt - such a thing would be a bit of an outrage these days. Despite his ridiculous numbers, Wilt didn't make the All-NBA team either some years. In fact, the season he averaged 50+ points (the only player in history to do that) and 25.7 rebounds a game...Russell won the MVP. Russell, known for his rebounding skills had less rebounds per game than Wilt in that year...nevermind that Wilt also scored about 32 points more per game than him. These kinds of stats are too impressive to ignore or to be refuted by Russell winning more titles.

    If the question is who won more rings? Russell. If the question is who is the better player it is a no brainer - Wilt. To go full circle - Russell didn't dominate Wilt...that's laughable.
    Last edited by Ikki; 14-04-2012 at 02:39 PM.

  14. #2684
    Global Moderator nightprowler10's Avatar
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    Thing is though, from what I've read, Wilt didn't dominate statistical categories because that is what was asked of him, but rather because he would get obsessed with certain stats. Like passing the ball in an effort to rack up assists at the end of close games instead of scoring himself. I don't even think it's because he had some unhealthy obsession with stats, I just don't think he took the game too seriously in the early part of his career. Didn't he even join the globetrotters early on because he thought playing pro was too much of a hassle? And West apparently said what he said because he didn't think Wilt had that winner gene in him. He did what he was asked to do, but gave up at the most crucial moments. In fact, the giving up part is what made Russell lose respect for Wilt and why they didn't talk for years. I'll give you that people didn't respect him partially due to his flamboyance and celebrity status, but you can't ignore the fact that while no one ever denied his immense talent, many of his own team mates and coaches had negative things to say about him as a team mate.

    I also wonder how much credit you're really giving Russell for his play making ability. He was known to make several plays down the stretch that would start from him playing excellent defense and follow it up by creating scoring opportunities on the offensive end as well. Wasn't he also known to be a fast break machine?

    Not sure what playing defense has to do with blocks in that context btw. Wilt was a freak, so he blocked everything. Doesn't mean he was a better defender by any means, though I'm not sure if you were really saying that anyway.

    I also think I could've made my statement more carefully. We were talking about Russel's mind games etc., and I thought it was pretty well known that he did the same to Wilt in big games. Wilt was always going to get his numbers, all you had to do was make sure he keeps calling for the ball, allowing you to shut out everyone else on the team. It's what Thibs always does to the Magic and Howard. Russel was famous for talking Wilt up before games, knowing full well that Wilt immensely respected him so he would try to dominate games by himself from the boost of confidence he'd get from Bill. So yeah he was a bit of a **** in that regard, and Wilt eventually thought of him as two faced because of these tactics, but he'd do it because he knew it would ensure his team a victory.

    So yeah, like I said, my point was never that Wilt was a worse player than Russell, I've admitted several times in the last couple of pages that he was a freak of nature, I just think Russell was a much superior bball mind and he used that to make his team better and win more than anybody else, ever.

  15. #2685
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    I've read the opposite, that in the years I cited re assists he did so on a conscious choice by his then coach. I think because of the fact that he played for inferior teams and came off second best it's too easy to hit him with the "he isn't a winner" remark. Some sportsmen are genius' but don't display outwardly their desire to win. Wilt was the kind of guy who even though he was bigger and stronger than everyone, rarely got into physical exchanges with people. He was a contradiction and he wasn't straight-laced like Russell.

    Russell may have been great at offloading, but I think it's a stretch to call him a great playmaker. I've never really heard it argued that he was. As for blocks stats...well Wilt beat him out in both blocks and rebounds over their careers; two things Russell is noted for amongst his defensive talents. The years in the end when Wilt concentrated on defending more around the ring like Russell; even Russell said that he was playing that role better than he ever did.

    We obviously think of the players differently. It's not my era of watching obviously so all I have are stats, some old vids and the opinions of other pros. For me, the statistical superiority is too much to weigh against the intangibles people like to offer for Russell. It's the biggest sell on faith I can imagine in sports and, personally, I am not a buyer.



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