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***Official NBA Thread***

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
I think it is a huge cop-out. When you watch their games, and by their own admissions they went at it hard. I am not sure of the context of that statement.

When you listen to them both it is Russell who is insecure and always uses his titles to stake his claim. But Wilt dominated Russell and everyone else. His teams were simply not good enough whereas Russell had HOFs on his bench IIRC. Wilt was really a marvellous player...incomparable. At least in his time, he had no real match-up...not even Russell IMO. Had he been in Russell's place they probably would have won even more. Unfortunately, Wilt was kinda seen as a bad guy and people begrudged him respect at times.
 
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nightprowler10

Global Moderator
Lol, Russell never sounded insecure to me. I do think he envied Wilt's natural talent but Wilt in turn envied Russell’s drive to win. I guess my point was that there was always more going on between the two than what the stats suggested.

I couldn’t disagree more with the rest of your post though. All the hall of famers on the C’s were good to excellent players, but not exactly champions or HOF worthy before they started playing with Russell. He made them better players, champions, and worthy of hall of fame, the same way Jordan made Pippen. He was the clear leader on that team and when Red retired, no one questioned his coach status. And IIRC, when he retired many of his HOFers were still playing and playing well, yet they didn’t win again with that team. People didn’t give Wilt anywhere near as much respect simply because he gave them reasons to not respect him. Everyone knew that Wilt was more about racking up stats and making himself look good rather than deferring to his teammates when necessary or even winning. Jerry West even came out and said after the ’69 finals that he’d much rather be playing with Russell than Wilt. Simply put, Wilt had all the talent in the world but no drive, whereas Russell was athletic and gifted and coupled with the excellent bball IQ and an almost psychotic desire to win, he was a bonafide winner. To suggest that Wilt would’ve done more with the same cast as Russell is ridiculous IMO. If you were to say that had Wilt had a similar cast and a different mind set early on in his career, sure. But that simply wasn’t the case, and unfortunately for him, it took him a while to figure out what he needed to do to win.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Yeh, we totally disagree there on a lot of points. The Celts did have lots of HOFs, IIRC 7 of them. He may have had a hand in them being better - and Russell loves to point it out (as I said, kinda insecure of his place IMO) - but it's a stretch to say that they were anything other than great teammates and the reason why his teams would regularly beat Wilt's. Against each other, Wilt outscored Russell, out-rebounded him, out-assisted him and even out-blocked him. It was the rest of his teammates that didn't do enough and not that Russell outplayed Wilt. Russell wasn't the all-round package to simply be helping his teammates be great IMO to give him that kind of credit. On the defensive end this argument has more merit.

Jerry West's comment on Wilt was unfair. When told to, he scored, when told to pass more, he did so - 66-67 season he averaged 7.8 assists and a year later he lead the league in total assists. He did whatever was asked of him. Having said that, he may have not been so strident towards 'the cause' as Russell might have been. However, I stick to my statement re championships; Wilt was too damn good to not go into that team and still win those same titles. On the defensive end he was also incredible - even though Russell gets credited with changing the tactics with regards to defence. I remember reading that there are interviews where Wilt, to Russell's face and with no objection, claimed that he blocked 3 shots to every 1 that Russell did - although they didn't keep an official count back in those days.

As I said, Wilt got a raw deal because he wasn't liked and Russell was. People may have not liked his flamboyance and were endeared to Russell's team-driven ethic. One year Russell didn't even make the All-NBA team yet won the MVP over Wilt - such a thing would be a bit of an outrage these days. Despite his ridiculous numbers, Wilt didn't make the All-NBA team either some years. In fact, the season he averaged 50+ points (the only player in history to do that) and 25.7 rebounds a game...Russell won the MVP. Russell, known for his rebounding skills had less rebounds per game than Wilt in that year...nevermind that Wilt also scored about 32 points more per game than him. These kinds of stats are too impressive to ignore or to be refuted by Russell winning more titles.

If the question is who won more rings? Russell. If the question is who is the better player it is a no brainer - Wilt. To go full circle - Russell didn't dominate Wilt...that's laughable.
 
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nightprowler10

Global Moderator
Thing is though, from what I've read, Wilt didn't dominate statistical categories because that is what was asked of him, but rather because he would get obsessed with certain stats. Like passing the ball in an effort to rack up assists at the end of close games instead of scoring himself. I don't even think it's because he had some unhealthy obsession with stats, I just don't think he took the game too seriously in the early part of his career. Didn't he even join the globetrotters early on because he thought playing pro was too much of a hassle? And West apparently said what he said because he didn't think Wilt had that winner gene in him. He did what he was asked to do, but gave up at the most crucial moments. In fact, the giving up part is what made Russell lose respect for Wilt and why they didn't talk for years. I'll give you that people didn't respect him partially due to his flamboyance and celebrity status, but you can't ignore the fact that while no one ever denied his immense talent, many of his own team mates and coaches had negative things to say about him as a team mate.

I also wonder how much credit you're really giving Russell for his play making ability. He was known to make several plays down the stretch that would start from him playing excellent defense and follow it up by creating scoring opportunities on the offensive end as well. Wasn't he also known to be a fast break machine?

Not sure what playing defense has to do with blocks in that context btw. Wilt was a freak, so he blocked everything. Doesn't mean he was a better defender by any means, though I'm not sure if you were really saying that anyway.

I also think I could've made my statement more carefully. We were talking about Russel's mind games etc., and I thought it was pretty well known that he did the same to Wilt in big games. Wilt was always going to get his numbers, all you had to do was make sure he keeps calling for the ball, allowing you to shut out everyone else on the team. It's what Thibs always does to the Magic and Howard. Russel was famous for talking Wilt up before games, knowing full well that Wilt immensely respected him so he would try to dominate games by himself from the boost of confidence he'd get from Bill. So yeah he was a bit of a **** in that regard, and Wilt eventually thought of him as two faced because of these tactics, but he'd do it because he knew it would ensure his team a victory.

So yeah, like I said, my point was never that Wilt was a worse player than Russell, I've admitted several times in the last couple of pages that he was a freak of nature, I just think Russell was a much superior bball mind and he used that to make his team better and win more than anybody else, ever.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
I've read the opposite, that in the years I cited re assists he did so on a conscious choice by his then coach. I think because of the fact that he played for inferior teams and came off second best it's too easy to hit him with the "he isn't a winner" remark. Some sportsmen are genius' but don't display outwardly their desire to win. Wilt was the kind of guy who even though he was bigger and stronger than everyone, rarely got into physical exchanges with people. He was a contradiction and he wasn't straight-laced like Russell.

Russell may have been great at offloading, but I think it's a stretch to call him a great playmaker. I've never really heard it argued that he was. As for blocks stats...well Wilt beat him out in both blocks and rebounds over their careers; two things Russell is noted for amongst his defensive talents. The years in the end when Wilt concentrated on defending more around the ring like Russell; even Russell said that he was playing that role better than he ever did.

We obviously think of the players differently. It's not my era of watching obviously so all I have are stats, some old vids and the opinions of other pros. For me, the statistical superiority is too much to weigh against the intangibles people like to offer for Russell. It's the biggest sell on faith I can imagine in sports and, personally, I am not a buyer.
 

KiWiNiNjA

International Coach
That's some pretty lame officiating in game to of the ANBL finals.

Taking home court advantage to new extremes.
 

dontcloseyoureyes

BARNES OUT
Yeah I was watching the game live on my phone at the time, hectic elbow. Wish no one broke it up, would've loved to watch a fight between Ibaka and Artest.
 

nightprowler10

Global Moderator
Looked really really bad on replay. I loved Artest's after game reaction. Something along the lines of "it was unfortunate that James ran into my unintentional elbow".

What the hell was Harden doing anyway?
 

Fusion

Global Moderator
Based on his history, he should be suspended for the entire playoffs. That's not going to happen though. I would expect a 5 game suspension.
 

duffer

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
The Bobcats are tanking better than I could've ever imagined. Apparently if they lose all their games they'll have the historically lowest win percentage ever. Jordan doing something right for a change. He's just such a bad executive.
 

nightprowler10

Global Moderator
Haha, you really think they'd be winning more if they tried? With this roster?

EDIT: Not suggesting that you're saying that, but it's hardly tanking when you're really that bad.
 
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dontcloseyoureyes

BARNES OUT
They're puss. DJ Augustin and Gerald Henderson are ther best players. Seriously.

Anyway, only 7 games for Artest. Shouldve been double digits for mine.
 

duffer

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Haha, you really think they'd be winning more if they tried? With this roster?

EDIT: Not suggesting that you're saying that, but it's hardly tanking when you're really that bad.
They tanked by just putting together this team. Trading away anything good they have except Kemba and BB just to hopefully get a number one is a bit much though. They'll suck for years now. Worse than last years Cavs team by far.
 

nightprowler10

Global Moderator
New Orleans definitely should take Jazz back, and give Hornets back to Charlotte. Utah can pick something else, like Saltines or Mormons.

Always bothered me about the Lakers too btw. LA couldn't be further away from a real lake. Why not just change the name upon moving the franchise a la Nets or even Thunder ?
 

Fusion

Global Moderator
Mavs had two possible playoff matchups going into tonight: The Thunder or the Lakers. We were likely to lose easily to either one, but I prefer the Thunder. And that's who we got. I think we matchup better with them. The Lakers big men give us huge problems. At least with the Thunder, Shawn Marion has a good shot at defending Westbrook. Durant will do his thing, but hopefully the double team and zone defense may slow him down a bit. Like I said, it's a looooooong shot, but not impossible.
 

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