Zinzan
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That fine Cane, as long as you accept you'd be the only person outside the Pokere family to hold that position.
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Official Rugby Thread
- Thread starter KennyD
- Start date
Zinzan
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Yup, I would have thought this was really obvious. Marshall was a great running half, almost a 4th loose forward, but given the primary role of a half is to distribute the ball, Marshall isn't even on the same plane is Smith.
Zinzan
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Surprised you could be so wrong on this one Francis. How do you figure the 2000s is even close to the 2010s? In the 2000s we won about 82% of games.... in the 2010's we're at about 92%, losing just 6 games out 85, saying nothing about the back to back world cups.
Incidentally the 1960s we won about 86%.
So surely it's
1. 2010s
2. 1960s
3. 2000s
The decade isn't over yet. If *** ******* continues to progress like they currently are, then it will definitely be my least favourite decade of rugby.
Weren't you going to do an all-time XV as well, Zinzan?
Good article on Quade Cooper...
Should Quade be handed the reins for the rest of the Rugby Championship? | The Roar
The Wallabies had desperate problems scoring tries in 2008 and ESPECIALLY 2009 when Matt Giteau was five-eighth. When Cooper became five-eighth in 2010, the Wallabies started to score tries. Cooper was sometimes a liability. His defence was BADLY exposed in the Test against England in 2010, and his scatter-brained play in the 2011 Quarter Final against South Africa and especially the semi-final against *** ******* was atrocious.
But the Aussies have to bite the bullet and admit that he's the only person who can give them tries.
Should Quade be handed the reins for the rest of the Rugby Championship? | The Roar
The Wallabies had desperate problems scoring tries in 2008 and ESPECIALLY 2009 when Matt Giteau was five-eighth. When Cooper became five-eighth in 2010, the Wallabies started to score tries. Cooper was sometimes a liability. His defence was BADLY exposed in the Test against England in 2010, and his scatter-brained play in the 2011 Quarter Final against South Africa and especially the semi-final against *** ******* was atrocious.
But the Aussies have to bite the bullet and admit that he's the only person who can give them tries.
Zinzan
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I did a couple of pages back... albeit best since 1986.. Here it is again, I have replaced Os du Randt with Olo Brown after thinking about it a bit more.
I wouldn't do it justice to a XV of players prior to the 1980s.... The only obvious additions If I did would be to include Colin Meads & Frik du Preez ahead of Johnson & Eales & Gareth Edwards @ halfback.
Incidentally Francis, who was this Russian Royal (Prince) I used to hear about who played for England in the 30s?
My Greatest XV since watching (around 1986).....
1 Topo Rodriguez
2 Sean Fitzpatrick
3 Olo Brown
4 John Eales
5 Martin Johnson
6 Richard Hill
7 Richie McCaw
8 Zinzan Brooke
9 Joost van der Westhuizen
10 Dan Carter
11 Jonah Lomu
12 Tim Horan
13 Danie Gerber
14 David Campese
15 Serge Blanco
Last edited:
Zinzan
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Sure, If you know how to start a new thread, go for it.
Zinzan
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Lol, I only wanted two teams... but it wouldn't be Francis without something this comprehensive. Agreed with most, the only ones I'd question are Kyle and Morgan ahead of Barry John & Phil Bennett, Butterfield ahead of the Irish folk-hero, Meredith ahead of Kieth Wood in your NH line-up.
In your SH I'd question, Don Clarke above Cullen, I mean all Clarke really did is kick goals as far as I can tell from reading about him, Roux ahead of Horan. Joost should be ahead of Going., Krikpatrick > Tremain & surprised you can't find a place in your top 10 or so locks for either Matfield or Stan Meads, surely an oversight.
Can you combine these and give us your greatest ever XV? Cheers.
Thanks for all that Zinzan.
I did read your all-time XV a few pages back, and I did comment on it, if you recall. But I was hoping for an all-time side including players who played before 1986. But now that you've mentioned that you are reluctant to do so, then I won't ask for one.
Obviously, du Preez, Meads, and Edwards are the three choices to make. du Preez and Meads were voted their country's greatest player of the 20th century. Given that South Africa and *** ******* are the two most successful sides of the amateur era, it's difficult to omit their greatest player. South Africa actually had a winning record over *** ******* in the amateur era, and it could be argued they were the greater side of the amateur era. Gareth Edwards is generally regarded by people from the Northern Hemisphere as the greatest rugby player ever. However, I'm not sure about that. People state that as if learnt by rote. Chris Laidlaw, for instance, said that Ken Catchpole was the greatest scrumhalf ever in his book. Martin Johnson noted, when he made his all-time XV, that Rob Howley comes awfully close to him. The Welsh have bestowed legendary status on him.
I'll do a Southern Hemisphere all-time XV, a Northern Hemisphere all-time XV and a World all-time XV.
All-time Southern Hemisphere XV
1. Chris Koch (South Africa)
2. Sean Fitzpatrick (*** *******)
3. Ken Gray (*** *******)
4. Frik du Preez (South Africa)
5. Colin Meads (*** *******)
6. Kel Tremain (*** *******)
7. Richie McCaw (*** *******)
8. Zinzan Brooke (*** *******)
9. Ken Catchpole (Australia)
10. Daniel Carter (*** *******)
11. Jonah Lomu (*** *******)
12. Mannetjies Roux (South Africa)
13. Danie Gerber (South Africa)
14. David Campese (Australia)
15. George Nepia (*** *******)
subs:
16. Topo Rodriguez (Australia)
17. Uli Schmidt (South Africa)
18. John Eales (Australia)
19. Michael Jones (*** *******)
20. Dave Loveridge (*** *******)
21. Mark Ella (Australia)
22. Tim Horan (Australia)
23. Christian Cullen (*** *******)
I felt like slitting my wrists putting so many players from *** ******* in this side.
Front row: Fitzy was a pretty obvious choice for hooker. Had Uli Schmidt played more and more, he may have been my choice. Most people from *** ******* rate Ken Gray their greatest prop, and he could prop both sides. There were so many amazing props I could have selected from South Africa. The testimonies regarding Koch make me rank him number #1. Especially the 44-0 thumping of Scotland in the early 1950s, Koch sounds like he was incredible with ball skills and ground coverage. Owing to what he did for Argentina on the tighthead side and Australia on the loosehead side, Rodriguez is a nice addition to the bench.
Locks: I picked *** *******'s Player of the 20th Century and South Africa's Player of the Century.
Backrow: McCaw... won 89% of the Tests he played in. Won 90% of the Tests he played in. He was probably *** *******'s best player in 50% of those Tests, and in their top three best players in about 75% of them. He's probably the second greatest rugby player of all time, behind Frik du Preez. Zinzan wasn't an automatic choice. Muller gave him a good scare. I hate HATE not putting Muller in my side.
Blindside flanker was a tough one... I felt suicidal placing Kel Tremain in this side. There was something so unnatural about selecting an all-*** ******* backrow. The problem is that prior to the 1970s, most countries just played flankers as left-right. Did Jan Ellis do enough to make this side? I thought about Ellis, Venter, Kruger, etc. But nobody stood out enough.
Catchpole is the clear choice at halfback for me. Originally I put van der Westhuisen as one of the subs, but then I realized that I forgot about Loveridge as his performance against the Lions in 1983. Loveridge is better than Joost van der Westhuisen. Do you know who else was better? Nick Farr-Jones. Farr-Jones didn't have a great pass that van der Westhuisen had, but he was more intelligent in his decision-making.
The five-eighths were terribly tricky. When people call Dan Carter the best five-eighth ever, I really think they're talking about the Carter from 2005-08 and 2010. Late in his career, Carter seldom took the ball up to the line, and really Nony was a gigantic help to him. Carter was the MOTM in the World Cup Final, and his kicking game was terrific that day and sealed-off the victory for *** ******. But Carter had some poor, poor performances in 2015 that people will never talk about. His performance in Brisbane in 2015 was horrendous! I don't think people really realize a) how injured Carter was later on in his career (2011-2015) b) how Carter could put in a solid performance and get enormous plaudits for it.
Mark Ella... two things go against him (1) longevityl (2) kicking. Ella played the same number of Tests that Barry John did, and I don't think John distinguished himself as any greater than Ella. So longevity doesn't hurt him too much. Kicking... Ella couldn't kick a ball to save his life early in his career. He got better at it, but he didn't really have a tactical outlook on the game. He's the perfect substitute who could run the ball from anywhere late in the Test.
Then again, maybe Porta was a better substitute - somebody who could slot a drop-goal late in a Test to win the game? My problem with Porta is ideological - a five-eighths primary role should be to create opportunities for his outside backs. When Porta had a bad kicking day, that was it! Argentina couldn't win. Ella outplayed him in 1983 in the second Test, BADLY, so I put Ella in there.
Centers: Gerber... easy pick. Inside center. It was Roux or Horan. Roux was a little genius. He was a magician. Horan is a tiny bit overrated, though still one of the greats. Horan's best assets were crash ball play and defence. Was he a dynamic passer of creator? No. Horan makes my bench though. I thought about Trevor Allan, but he didn't long enough. I also thought about putting big John Gainsford on the bench.
Wingers: We've discussed Campese and Lomu enough. Oh wait! I ranked John Kirwan higher than Lomu previously, didn't I? Oh, well I like having some ying and yang in there. Campese the magician. Lomu the bulldozer.
Fullback: Nepia ranked as *** ******'s best player in their legendary Invincibles side, which might be the most important side ever - even more important than the 1905 Originals - in establishing rugby as *** ******'s national game. *** ****** desperately needed something to lift itself out of the mediocrity that is *** *******, and the 1924 Invincibles gave them that. I've taken your advice regarding Cullen over Clarke... although without Clarke, *** ******* wouldn't have won half the Tests they did in the 1950s/60s - think about the Lions side that scored five tries to one (is that correct, I forget?) and still lost to *** *******. The *** *******ers were basically demanding that the 1959 Lions win that last Test to restore sanity to the world.
All-Time Northern Hemisphere XV
1. Robert Paparemborde (France)
2. Bryn Meredith (Wales)
3. Fran Cotton (England)
4. Martin Johnson (England)
5. Willie John McBride (Ireland)
6. Ivor Jones (Wales)
7. Peter Winterbottom (England)
8. Walter Spanghero (France)
9. Gareth Edwards (Wales)
10. Jack Kyle (Ireland)
11. Tony O'Reilly (Ireland)
12. Mike Gibson (Ireland)
13. Philippe Sella (France)
14. Gerald Davies (Wales)
15. Serge Blanco (France)
subs:
16. Graham Price (Wales)
17. Keith Wood (Ireland)
18. Gordon Brown (Scotland)
19. Jean-Pierre Rives (France)
20. Rob Howley (Wales)
21. Cliff Morgan (Wales)
22. Jeff Butterfield (England)
23. J.P.R. Williams (Wales)
Front row: The difficult thing about these all-time XVs is that every country has great props, and you can really only judge them by reputation. Ian McLuaghlin propped for the two greatest Lions sides... but it's the 1974 pack that was the great forward pack of the Lions, and I went for the Englishman propping on the other side. While McLaughlin has a wonderful legacy for the Lions, I don't recall him doing much in the Five Nations. Cotton is my first choice.
I think Graham Price is a little overrated. I think everything Welsh from the 70s is a little overrated. I love Welsh rugby. I could dine-out of highlights of Wales from the 70s. But they overrate themselves. Robert Paparemborde is a legend of French rugby. He was dirty as anything, but he could manage Price and was never beaten.
Meredith scored a dandy of a try for the 56 Lions. His hooking was a crucial part of the success of the 1956 Lions that took two Tests against South Africa - a huge accomplishment!
Locks: Johnson was England's greatest ever player, greatest ever captain, played his best rugby at the end of his career, and was an easy choice. What I don't know whether I got right was whether I should put McBride or Mias in there. McBride was the legendary Lion with victories in *** ****** and South Africa, so he's my choice.
Backrow: Ivor Jones... we're going way, way back into the history of Welsh rugby here. But his iconic status earns him this spot. Over Fergus Slattery I selected Peter Winterbottom, who may be the most respected player in *** ****** who isn't a *** *******er. He's an epic Lions from '83 and '93. Eightman was difficult. It was a choice between Merv Davies - another overrated Welshy - or Spanghero, who Meads rated as his toughest opponent ever. I went with the Meads testimony.
Scrumhalf: Edwards was easy. I think Howley deserves to be second. He badly outplayed Gregan in the first Test from 2001. Gregan himself rated him the best northern hemisphere opponent he ever faced, and praised him for mixing his kicking and passing perfectly. I agree.
Flyhalf: Kyle, Morgan, John, Bennett, etc. Too many to choose. Kyle and Morgan belong to a unique period of rugby history, so I went with them. Kyle was voted Ireland's Player of the Century, which is impressive. People might think that Kyle doesn't belong in my side, but people don't hesitate to put Gibson in their all-time sides, and the Irish thought that Kyle was their greatest ever player... so there!
Centres: Gibson and Sella were easy choices. Didier Codorniou remains the most underrated rugby player of all time! But Butterfield is a legend of English rugby, so he makes the bench.
Wingers: Ireland are probably over-represented in my side. It's just that they had players in the right positions for me. O'Reilly sneaks in over David Duckham for what he did on the 1959 Tour to *** *******. Honestly, that is the most underrated rugby side of all time. They were attacking innovators who entertained the crowds. *** ******* had a better pack and Don Clarke's boot!
Fullback: Blanco and Williams are easy enough choices. Andy Irvine maybe comes close, but Williams always got the Lions nod.
All-Time XV
1. Robert Paparemborde (France)
2. Sean Fitzpatrick (*** *******)
3. Ken Gray (*** *******)
4. Frik du Preez (South Africa)
5. Colin Meads (*** *******)
6. Kel Tremain (*** *******)
7. Richie McCaw (*** *******)
8. Zinzan Brooke (*** *******)
9. Gareth Edwards (Wales)
10. Daniel Carter (*** *******)
11. David Campese (Australia)
12. Philippe Sella (France)
13. Danie Gerber (South Africa)
14. Tony O'Reilly (Ireland)
15. Serge Blanco (France)
subs:
16. Chris Koch (South Africa)
17. Bryn Meredith (Wales)
18. John Eales (Australia)
19. Michael Jones (*** *******)
20. Ken Catchpole (Australia)
21. Jack Kyle (Ireland)
22. Mike Gibson (Ireland)
23. J.P.R. Williams (Wales)
Front-row: I feel horrible that I didn't select a South African prop in the all-time side. Their rugby history deserves one of their props to be in an all-time side. But Gray and Paparemborde just have a phenomenal status within their own country.
Locks: I don't need to talk about Meads and du Preez. Eales v Johnson is difficult, because they're different players. I sort of have a preference for second rowers who do the hard-driving in tight play, and that's Johnson. But Eales has a winning record against *** ****** and two World Cups. Eales' performances against Wales are freakish for their dominance.
Back-row: I feel like self-harming selecting an all-*** ******* back-row, aaaaaaaand Michael Jones on the bench. Jones is probably one of the five greatest players to ever play the game, so his inclusion is understandable - especially since he could play both openside and blindside.
Scumhalf: Edwards and Catchpole are pretty straightforward, I think...
Flyhalf: This is difficult. I could have selected a plethora of NH flyhalves to make this side. But I just think Carter at his best ticks every box.
Centres: I was watching the 1987 World Cup Semi Final between France and Australia the other day. Sella was indeed playing at 12 - second-five, and he sliced through for a great try! I've said enough about Gerber before. He would have been the greatest.
Wingers: Tony O'Reilly had 38 tries playing on two Lions tours! 38!!! That will never be equaled ever again! And they were the two most innovative Lions sides ever. In 1959 the Lions didn't have a Jack Kyle or Cliff Morgan at flyhalf, and yet that didn't stop O'Reilly from scoring a load of tries in New Zealand. I've said enough about Campo here at CW. No more needs to be added.
Fullback: Blanco's a fairly easy selection.
I did read your all-time XV a few pages back, and I did comment on it, if you recall. But I was hoping for an all-time side including players who played before 1986. But now that you've mentioned that you are reluctant to do so, then I won't ask for one.
Obviously, du Preez, Meads, and Edwards are the three choices to make. du Preez and Meads were voted their country's greatest player of the 20th century. Given that South Africa and *** ******* are the two most successful sides of the amateur era, it's difficult to omit their greatest player. South Africa actually had a winning record over *** ******* in the amateur era, and it could be argued they were the greater side of the amateur era. Gareth Edwards is generally regarded by people from the Northern Hemisphere as the greatest rugby player ever. However, I'm not sure about that. People state that as if learnt by rote. Chris Laidlaw, for instance, said that Ken Catchpole was the greatest scrumhalf ever in his book. Martin Johnson noted, when he made his all-time XV, that Rob Howley comes awfully close to him. The Welsh have bestowed legendary status on him.
I'll do a Southern Hemisphere all-time XV, a Northern Hemisphere all-time XV and a World all-time XV.
All-time Southern Hemisphere XV
1. Chris Koch (South Africa)
2. Sean Fitzpatrick (*** *******)
3. Ken Gray (*** *******)
4. Frik du Preez (South Africa)
5. Colin Meads (*** *******)
6. Kel Tremain (*** *******)
7. Richie McCaw (*** *******)
8. Zinzan Brooke (*** *******)
9. Ken Catchpole (Australia)
10. Daniel Carter (*** *******)
11. Jonah Lomu (*** *******)
12. Mannetjies Roux (South Africa)
13. Danie Gerber (South Africa)
14. David Campese (Australia)
15. George Nepia (*** *******)
subs:
16. Topo Rodriguez (Australia)
17. Uli Schmidt (South Africa)
18. John Eales (Australia)
19. Michael Jones (*** *******)
20. Dave Loveridge (*** *******)
21. Mark Ella (Australia)
22. Tim Horan (Australia)
23. Christian Cullen (*** *******)
I felt like slitting my wrists putting so many players from *** ******* in this side.
Front row: Fitzy was a pretty obvious choice for hooker. Had Uli Schmidt played more and more, he may have been my choice. Most people from *** ******* rate Ken Gray their greatest prop, and he could prop both sides. There were so many amazing props I could have selected from South Africa. The testimonies regarding Koch make me rank him number #1. Especially the 44-0 thumping of Scotland in the early 1950s, Koch sounds like he was incredible with ball skills and ground coverage. Owing to what he did for Argentina on the tighthead side and Australia on the loosehead side, Rodriguez is a nice addition to the bench.
Locks: I picked *** *******'s Player of the 20th Century and South Africa's Player of the Century.
Backrow: McCaw... won 89% of the Tests he played in. Won 90% of the Tests he played in. He was probably *** *******'s best player in 50% of those Tests, and in their top three best players in about 75% of them. He's probably the second greatest rugby player of all time, behind Frik du Preez. Zinzan wasn't an automatic choice. Muller gave him a good scare. I hate HATE not putting Muller in my side.
Blindside flanker was a tough one... I felt suicidal placing Kel Tremain in this side. There was something so unnatural about selecting an all-*** ******* backrow. The problem is that prior to the 1970s, most countries just played flankers as left-right. Did Jan Ellis do enough to make this side? I thought about Ellis, Venter, Kruger, etc. But nobody stood out enough.
Catchpole is the clear choice at halfback for me. Originally I put van der Westhuisen as one of the subs, but then I realized that I forgot about Loveridge as his performance against the Lions in 1983. Loveridge is better than Joost van der Westhuisen. Do you know who else was better? Nick Farr-Jones. Farr-Jones didn't have a great pass that van der Westhuisen had, but he was more intelligent in his decision-making.
The five-eighths were terribly tricky. When people call Dan Carter the best five-eighth ever, I really think they're talking about the Carter from 2005-08 and 2010. Late in his career, Carter seldom took the ball up to the line, and really Nony was a gigantic help to him. Carter was the MOTM in the World Cup Final, and his kicking game was terrific that day and sealed-off the victory for *** ******. But Carter had some poor, poor performances in 2015 that people will never talk about. His performance in Brisbane in 2015 was horrendous! I don't think people really realize a) how injured Carter was later on in his career (2011-2015) b) how Carter could put in a solid performance and get enormous plaudits for it.
Mark Ella... two things go against him (1) longevityl (2) kicking. Ella played the same number of Tests that Barry John did, and I don't think John distinguished himself as any greater than Ella. So longevity doesn't hurt him too much. Kicking... Ella couldn't kick a ball to save his life early in his career. He got better at it, but he didn't really have a tactical outlook on the game. He's the perfect substitute who could run the ball from anywhere late in the Test.
Then again, maybe Porta was a better substitute - somebody who could slot a drop-goal late in a Test to win the game? My problem with Porta is ideological - a five-eighths primary role should be to create opportunities for his outside backs. When Porta had a bad kicking day, that was it! Argentina couldn't win. Ella outplayed him in 1983 in the second Test, BADLY, so I put Ella in there.
Centers: Gerber... easy pick. Inside center. It was Roux or Horan. Roux was a little genius. He was a magician. Horan is a tiny bit overrated, though still one of the greats. Horan's best assets were crash ball play and defence. Was he a dynamic passer of creator? No. Horan makes my bench though. I thought about Trevor Allan, but he didn't long enough. I also thought about putting big John Gainsford on the bench.
Wingers: We've discussed Campese and Lomu enough. Oh wait! I ranked John Kirwan higher than Lomu previously, didn't I? Oh, well I like having some ying and yang in there. Campese the magician. Lomu the bulldozer.
Fullback: Nepia ranked as *** ******'s best player in their legendary Invincibles side, which might be the most important side ever - even more important than the 1905 Originals - in establishing rugby as *** ******'s national game. *** ****** desperately needed something to lift itself out of the mediocrity that is *** *******, and the 1924 Invincibles gave them that. I've taken your advice regarding Cullen over Clarke... although without Clarke, *** ******* wouldn't have won half the Tests they did in the 1950s/60s - think about the Lions side that scored five tries to one (is that correct, I forget?) and still lost to *** *******. The *** *******ers were basically demanding that the 1959 Lions win that last Test to restore sanity to the world.
All-Time Northern Hemisphere XV
1. Robert Paparemborde (France)
2. Bryn Meredith (Wales)
3. Fran Cotton (England)
4. Martin Johnson (England)
5. Willie John McBride (Ireland)
6. Ivor Jones (Wales)
7. Peter Winterbottom (England)
8. Walter Spanghero (France)
9. Gareth Edwards (Wales)
10. Jack Kyle (Ireland)
11. Tony O'Reilly (Ireland)
12. Mike Gibson (Ireland)
13. Philippe Sella (France)
14. Gerald Davies (Wales)
15. Serge Blanco (France)
subs:
16. Graham Price (Wales)
17. Keith Wood (Ireland)
18. Gordon Brown (Scotland)
19. Jean-Pierre Rives (France)
20. Rob Howley (Wales)
21. Cliff Morgan (Wales)
22. Jeff Butterfield (England)
23. J.P.R. Williams (Wales)
Front row: The difficult thing about these all-time XVs is that every country has great props, and you can really only judge them by reputation. Ian McLuaghlin propped for the two greatest Lions sides... but it's the 1974 pack that was the great forward pack of the Lions, and I went for the Englishman propping on the other side. While McLaughlin has a wonderful legacy for the Lions, I don't recall him doing much in the Five Nations. Cotton is my first choice.
I think Graham Price is a little overrated. I think everything Welsh from the 70s is a little overrated. I love Welsh rugby. I could dine-out of highlights of Wales from the 70s. But they overrate themselves. Robert Paparemborde is a legend of French rugby. He was dirty as anything, but he could manage Price and was never beaten.
Meredith scored a dandy of a try for the 56 Lions. His hooking was a crucial part of the success of the 1956 Lions that took two Tests against South Africa - a huge accomplishment!
Locks: Johnson was England's greatest ever player, greatest ever captain, played his best rugby at the end of his career, and was an easy choice. What I don't know whether I got right was whether I should put McBride or Mias in there. McBride was the legendary Lion with victories in *** ****** and South Africa, so he's my choice.
Backrow: Ivor Jones... we're going way, way back into the history of Welsh rugby here. But his iconic status earns him this spot. Over Fergus Slattery I selected Peter Winterbottom, who may be the most respected player in *** ****** who isn't a *** *******er. He's an epic Lions from '83 and '93. Eightman was difficult. It was a choice between Merv Davies - another overrated Welshy - or Spanghero, who Meads rated as his toughest opponent ever. I went with the Meads testimony.
Scrumhalf: Edwards was easy. I think Howley deserves to be second. He badly outplayed Gregan in the first Test from 2001. Gregan himself rated him the best northern hemisphere opponent he ever faced, and praised him for mixing his kicking and passing perfectly. I agree.
Flyhalf: Kyle, Morgan, John, Bennett, etc. Too many to choose. Kyle and Morgan belong to a unique period of rugby history, so I went with them. Kyle was voted Ireland's Player of the Century, which is impressive. People might think that Kyle doesn't belong in my side, but people don't hesitate to put Gibson in their all-time sides, and the Irish thought that Kyle was their greatest ever player... so there!
Centres: Gibson and Sella were easy choices. Didier Codorniou remains the most underrated rugby player of all time! But Butterfield is a legend of English rugby, so he makes the bench.
Wingers: Ireland are probably over-represented in my side. It's just that they had players in the right positions for me. O'Reilly sneaks in over David Duckham for what he did on the 1959 Tour to *** *******. Honestly, that is the most underrated rugby side of all time. They were attacking innovators who entertained the crowds. *** ******* had a better pack and Don Clarke's boot!
Fullback: Blanco and Williams are easy enough choices. Andy Irvine maybe comes close, but Williams always got the Lions nod.
All-Time XV
1. Robert Paparemborde (France)
2. Sean Fitzpatrick (*** *******)
3. Ken Gray (*** *******)
4. Frik du Preez (South Africa)
5. Colin Meads (*** *******)
6. Kel Tremain (*** *******)
7. Richie McCaw (*** *******)
8. Zinzan Brooke (*** *******)
9. Gareth Edwards (Wales)
10. Daniel Carter (*** *******)
11. David Campese (Australia)
12. Philippe Sella (France)
13. Danie Gerber (South Africa)
14. Tony O'Reilly (Ireland)
15. Serge Blanco (France)
subs:
16. Chris Koch (South Africa)
17. Bryn Meredith (Wales)
18. John Eales (Australia)
19. Michael Jones (*** *******)
20. Ken Catchpole (Australia)
21. Jack Kyle (Ireland)
22. Mike Gibson (Ireland)
23. J.P.R. Williams (Wales)
Front-row: I feel horrible that I didn't select a South African prop in the all-time side. Their rugby history deserves one of their props to be in an all-time side. But Gray and Paparemborde just have a phenomenal status within their own country.
Locks: I don't need to talk about Meads and du Preez. Eales v Johnson is difficult, because they're different players. I sort of have a preference for second rowers who do the hard-driving in tight play, and that's Johnson. But Eales has a winning record against *** ****** and two World Cups. Eales' performances against Wales are freakish for their dominance.
Back-row: I feel like self-harming selecting an all-*** ******* back-row, aaaaaaaand Michael Jones on the bench. Jones is probably one of the five greatest players to ever play the game, so his inclusion is understandable - especially since he could play both openside and blindside.
Scumhalf: Edwards and Catchpole are pretty straightforward, I think...
Flyhalf: This is difficult. I could have selected a plethora of NH flyhalves to make this side. But I just think Carter at his best ticks every box.
Centres: I was watching the 1987 World Cup Semi Final between France and Australia the other day. Sella was indeed playing at 12 - second-five, and he sliced through for a great try! I've said enough about Gerber before. He would have been the greatest.
Wingers: Tony O'Reilly had 38 tries playing on two Lions tours! 38!!! That will never be equaled ever again! And they were the two most innovative Lions sides ever. In 1959 the Lions didn't have a Jack Kyle or Cliff Morgan at flyhalf, and yet that didn't stop O'Reilly from scoring a load of tries in New Zealand. I've said enough about Campo here at CW. No more needs to be added.
Fullback: Blanco's a fairly easy selection.
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Zinzan
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Good effort that.
Interesting Jones makes your All-time bench without making the SC starting line-up....Tony O'Reilly that good? Read about him, but don't recall him being rated so highly. You also appear to be overrating Tremain for some reason. The guy was a great All Black, but wasn't as good as Ian Kirkpatrick.
Sella's the 2nd best centre of all-time, so I understand your thinking, but he's just not a better 2nd-five than Tim Horan.
Interesting Jones makes your All-time bench without making the SC starting line-up....Tony O'Reilly that good? Read about him, but don't recall him being rated so highly. You also appear to be overrating Tremain for some reason. The guy was a great All Black, but wasn't as good as Ian Kirkpatrick.
Sella's the 2nd best centre of all-time, so I understand your thinking, but he's just not a better 2nd-five than Tim Horan.
FROM WIKIPEDIA
O'Reilly toured twice with the British Lions, on their 1955 tour to South Africa and their 1959 tour to Australia and New Zealand. He made his debut for the Lions on 26 June 1955, scoring two tries against a Northern Universities XV. He played 15 games during the 1955 tour, scoring 16 tries. This included hat-tricks against a North Eastern Districts XV on 20 July and Transvaal on 23 July. He also played in all four Tests against South Africa, making his Test debut on the right wing before a crowd of 95,000 at Ellis Park on 6 August. He scored a try in the Lions 23-22 victory. He scored another try in the fourth Test on 24 September.
On the 1959 tour he played a further 23 games and scored 22 tries. This included a hat-trick against King Country/Counties on 19 August. He played in all six tests, two against Australia and four against New Zealand. He scored tries in the two test wins against Australia and in the first and fourth tests against New Zealand. His total of 38 tries for the Lions on two tours remains a record.[
38 tries in 38 matches!
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You might be right about Sella, actually. In that case, a better selection is Mike Gibson at 12. It feels wrong putting three Irish players in an all-time side, but Kyle, O'Reilly and Gibson are all contenders for mine!
O'Reilly toured twice with the British Lions, on their 1955 tour to South Africa and their 1959 tour to Australia and New Zealand. He made his debut for the Lions on 26 June 1955, scoring two tries against a Northern Universities XV. He played 15 games during the 1955 tour, scoring 16 tries. This included hat-tricks against a North Eastern Districts XV on 20 July and Transvaal on 23 July. He also played in all four Tests against South Africa, making his Test debut on the right wing before a crowd of 95,000 at Ellis Park on 6 August. He scored a try in the Lions 23-22 victory. He scored another try in the fourth Test on 24 September.
On the 1959 tour he played a further 23 games and scored 22 tries. This included a hat-trick against King Country/Counties on 19 August. He played in all six tests, two against Australia and four against New Zealand. He scored tries in the two test wins against Australia and in the first and fourth tests against New Zealand. His total of 38 tries for the Lions on two tours remains a record.[
38 tries in 38 matches!
---------------------------------
You might be right about Sella, actually. In that case, a better selection is Mike Gibson at 12. It feels wrong putting three Irish players in an all-time side, but Kyle, O'Reilly and Gibson are all contenders for mine!
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Because... I... am... bored...
All-Time British and Irish Lions XV
1. Ian McLaughlin (Scotland)
Mighty Mouse! Propped against New Zealand in 1971, coming on as replacement for another McLuaghlin - Ireland's Ray McLaughlin. As ohtani's jacket once said to me, in 1974 he drilled the life out of Hannes Marias, something that even Saffies admit - and that takes a lot!
2. Bryn Meredith (Wales)
His quick strikes were important for the victories against South Africa in 1956. He also scored that ridiculous try in 1956, supporting once of his wingers, after breaking away from a scrum!
3. Fran Cotton (England)
The other side of the dominant forward pack of the 1974 British and Irish Lions.
4. Martin Johnson (England)
Magnificent on the 1997 tour to SA, and he was awesome in 2001 - that was the best Lions side never to win a series.
5. Willie John McBride (Ireland)
The most capped Lion of all time, and the heroic captain of the '71 and '74 Lions.
6. Richard Hill (England)
As Johnson once said, " When we were playing with the Lions, if Hill wasn't playing, we didn't win." His injury in the 2nd Test of the 2001 Lions series really stuffed up the second Test for the Lions, and his presence was sorely missed in the third Test.
7. Peter Winterbottom
Worshiped in New Zealand and South Africa for his heroic performances for the Lions. Fergus Slattery is tough to miss out though.
8. Mervyn Davies
Merve the Swerve. Easy pick.
9. Gareth Edwards
Nobody comes close.
10. Barry John
I should probably pick Cliff Morgan, and be consistent. But I feel like being contrary. The '71 Lions got mauled in the forward pack, and yet they achieved the most famous of all Test series victories, primarily off Barry John's boot.
11. Tony O'Reilly
38 tries in 38 matches! Just two tours! That will never be matched!
12. Mike Gibson
Easy pick.
13. Jeff Butterfield (England)
A throw back to the innovators of the 50s... maybe I should select BOD.
14. Gerald Davies (Wales)
Scored a great try on the '71 Tour.
15. J.P.R. Williams
Almost as easy a pick as Edwards. His drop-goal sealed victory for the '71 Lions - or a draw to be more precise, that led to a series victory.
subs:
16. Graham Price
17. Keith Wood (Ireland)
18. Gordon Brown (Scotland)
19. Fergus Slattery (Ireland)
20. Rob Howley (Wales)
21. Cliff Morgan (Wales)
22. Brian O'Driscoll
23. Gavin Hastings
All-Time British and Irish Lions XV
1. Ian McLaughlin (Scotland)
Mighty Mouse! Propped against New Zealand in 1971, coming on as replacement for another McLuaghlin - Ireland's Ray McLaughlin. As ohtani's jacket once said to me, in 1974 he drilled the life out of Hannes Marias, something that even Saffies admit - and that takes a lot!
2. Bryn Meredith (Wales)
His quick strikes were important for the victories against South Africa in 1956. He also scored that ridiculous try in 1956, supporting once of his wingers, after breaking away from a scrum!
3. Fran Cotton (England)
The other side of the dominant forward pack of the 1974 British and Irish Lions.
4. Martin Johnson (England)
Magnificent on the 1997 tour to SA, and he was awesome in 2001 - that was the best Lions side never to win a series.
5. Willie John McBride (Ireland)
The most capped Lion of all time, and the heroic captain of the '71 and '74 Lions.
6. Richard Hill (England)
As Johnson once said, " When we were playing with the Lions, if Hill wasn't playing, we didn't win." His injury in the 2nd Test of the 2001 Lions series really stuffed up the second Test for the Lions, and his presence was sorely missed in the third Test.
7. Peter Winterbottom
Worshiped in New Zealand and South Africa for his heroic performances for the Lions. Fergus Slattery is tough to miss out though.
8. Mervyn Davies
Merve the Swerve. Easy pick.
9. Gareth Edwards
Nobody comes close.
10. Barry John
I should probably pick Cliff Morgan, and be consistent. But I feel like being contrary. The '71 Lions got mauled in the forward pack, and yet they achieved the most famous of all Test series victories, primarily off Barry John's boot.
11. Tony O'Reilly
38 tries in 38 matches! Just two tours! That will never be matched!
12. Mike Gibson
Easy pick.
13. Jeff Butterfield (England)
A throw back to the innovators of the 50s... maybe I should select BOD.
14. Gerald Davies (Wales)
Scored a great try on the '71 Tour.
15. J.P.R. Williams
Almost as easy a pick as Edwards. His drop-goal sealed victory for the '71 Lions - or a draw to be more precise, that led to a series victory.
subs:
16. Graham Price
17. Keith Wood (Ireland)
18. Gordon Brown (Scotland)
19. Fergus Slattery (Ireland)
20. Rob Howley (Wales)
21. Cliff Morgan (Wales)
22. Brian O'Driscoll
23. Gavin Hastings
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Just seen the Wallabies team to play the Boks and we have a 7 at 8, a lock at 6, a 10 at 12, a 12 at 13, a centre on one wing and a fullback on the other.
Call me a radical but I'd be more comfortable if they selected players in the position that they were used to playing
Oh and btw, Pooper doesnt work
Call me a radical but I'd be more comfortable if they selected players in the position that they were used to playing
Oh and btw, Pooper doesnt work
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Burgey
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StephenZA
Hall of Fame Member
No worries, it can be good to experiment against the weaker teams... I am just happy when the springboks work out where the opposition try line is nowadays.
It was so sad not to see Pooper do well... looked like such a match made in heaven, but obviously it was just never meant to be...
ripper868
International Coach
Well the Pooper did work for a while, but now the ABS and it appears England worked it out. I won't be surprised if the boks win this one. Cooper needs 2 centres running lines to pass to, that's when he's at his best - he doesn't need an extra distributor (Foley) getting in the way.