Official Rugby Thread

[ripper868]

now have an awesome job with one of the state rugby bodies and i haven't even finished uni yet....**** im lucky

[Francis]

With the All Blacks upcoming tour of Europe coming up, I'm trying to find about how many times they went to Europe, you know, back in the days where a tour to Britain only seldom occurred.

From memory all I have is (and I'm not sure my memory is correct):

The 1905 Originals that lost to Wales (a year before SA went undefeated)

The 1924 Invincibles that didn't play Scotland

I'm pretty sure a side toured in 1953 which lost to a Cliff Morgan inspired Wales (sounds like Wales and the All Blacks had a decent rivalry back then).

I think there was a side in the 60s that toured but they didn't play Ireland (scared most likely)

There was a tour in the 70s where the All Blacks failed to beat Ireland (proving that Ireland would have been a bogey team in the 60s as well)

Graeme Mourie's Grand Slam winning side (nice dive Andy!)

What else is there?

[BoyBrumby]

Originally Posted by Francis

With the All Blacks upcoming tour of Europe coming up, I'm trying to find about how many times they went to Europe, you know, back in the days where a tour to Britain only seldom occurred.

From memory all I have is (and I'm not sure my memory is correct):

The 1905 Originals that lost to Wales (a year before SA went undefeated)

The 1924 Invincibles that didn't play Scotland

I'm pretty sure a side toured in 1953 which lost to a Cliff Morgan inspired Wales (sounds like Wales and the All Blacks had a decent rivalry back then).

I think there was a side in the 60s that toured but they didn't play Ireland (scared most likely)

There was a tour in the 70s where the All Blacks failed to beat Ireland (proving that Ireland would have been a bogey team in the 60s as well)

Graeme Mourie's Grand Slam winning side (nice dive Andy!)

What else is there?

Also toured in 1935/6. Defeated Scotland & Ireland, but lost to Wales and England (Prince Obolensky's test).

They did tour in the 60s. Twice in fact. 63/64 when a 0-0 draw with Scotland cost them a Grand Slam & 67/68 when, yep, they didn't play Ireland but defeated each of the other 5 Nations (as was) teams.

[Francis]

Golly mate, is there anything about rugby you don't know? You are the rugby authority of CW as far as I'm concerned.

So if I'm right, Wales actually had a winning record against New Zealand for most of the 20th century? Facinating.

That 67/68 team sounds great. Gareth Edwards once said they were the best rugby team he'd ever seen.

[BoyBrumby]

Originally Posted by Francis

Golly mate, is there anything about rugby you don't know? You are the rugby authority of CW as far as I'm concerned.

So if I'm right, Wales actually had a winning record against New Zealand for most of the 20th century? Facinating.

That 67/68 team sounds great. Gareth Edwards once said they were the best rugby team he'd ever seen.

Ha, would love to claim the credit entirely, but Pick And Go is my go-to site for union test stats.

You're right tho, yeah. The Welsh actually won 3 or their first 4 tests against the All Blacks. Wasn't until 1969 that the ABs pulled ahead.

[Francis]

Thanks for the site BoyBrumby!

It's almost mindboggling that there was a period in All Black history where they had the third best rugby legacy of any countries. South Africa having dominated the first half the century with three grand slams (and another one in 1952) and going undefeated until John Soloman's Aussie beat them in 1954. Not forgetting having a side that was declared the best ever to leave NZ shored when they beat in Blacks in the late 30s. Oh and beating the All Blacks 4-0 in 1949. They clearly had the best rugby history in the 1960s when the Welsh had a winning record over NZ.

But Wales actually had a winning record against New Zealand. I suppose it's a shame for the Welsh legacy that things couldn't continue that wya in the 70s. I mean they lost to what many have described as a pretty subpar All Black side in the early 70s. Heck England won in 1973 on Kiwi soil and England never beat Wales at the Arm Park in the 70s.

Nevertheles, despite Wales having a rough few decades (they got an alright side currently), I'd have to rank their rugby history as third on the all time list.

----

All this is interesting because for this talk from Kiwi's that the All Blacks never had many chances to win a Grand Slam, well they had one in 1905. They lost to two home nations in the 1930s. They lost to Wales in 1953. They drew Scotland in the 60s and Ireland in the 70s. And they lost to England in 1983.

Look at bloody South Africa... four grand slams from their first four efforts. Jolly unbelievable.

------

Anyway this upcomg tour should be interesting. With all my talk of New Zealand v Wales... it may just be that they'll be the one game to watch this year!

[Smudge]

Francis,

NZ didn't play Ireland in 1967 because of foot and mouth disease in Ireland. Why would the ABs be scared of a team they've never lost to? Let alone an AB team featuring Fergie McCormick, Earle Kirton, Chris Laidlaw, Brian Lochore, Waka Nathan, Colin Meads, Kel Tremain, Bruce McLeod and Ken Gray.

So if I'm right, Wales actually had a winning record against New Zealand for most of the 20th century? Facinating

Of course, that depends how much you want to skew your figures. Here are the results from 1905 to 1999:

29/11/1997
 New Zealand vs Wales
 42 - 7
 Wembley Stadium
 London
 England
 
31/05/1995
 New Zealand vs Wales
 34 - 9
 Ellis Park
 Johannesburg
 South Africa
 
4/11/1989
 New Zealand vs Wales
 34 - 9
 Arms Park
 Cardiff
 Wales
 
11/06/1988
 New Zealand vs Wales
 54 - 9
 Eden Park
 Auckland
 New Zealand
 
28/05/1988
 New Zealand vs Wales
 52 - 3
 Lancaster Park
 Christchurch
 New Zealand
 
14/06/1987
 New Zealand vs Wales
 49 - 6
 Ballymore Oval
 Brisbane
 Australia
 
1/11/1980
 New Zealand vs Wales
 23 - 3
 Arms Park
 Cardiff
 Wales
 
11/11/1978
 New Zealand vs Wales
 13 - 12
 Arms Park
 Cardiff
 Wales
 
2/12/1972
 New Zealand vs Wales
 19 - 16
 Arms Park
 Cardiff
 Wales
 
14/06/1969
 New Zealand vs Wales
 33 - 12
 Eden Park
 Auckland
 New Zealand
 
31/05/1969
 New Zealand vs Wales
 19 - 0
 Lancaster Park
 Christchurch
 New Zealand
 
11/11/1967
 New Zealand vs Wales
 13 - 6
 Arms Park
 Cardiff
 Wales
 
21/12/1963
 New Zealand vs Wales
 6 - 0
 Arms Park
 Cardiff
 Wales
 
19/12/1953
 New Zealand vs Wales
 8 - 13
 Arms Park
 Cardiff
 Wales
 
21/12/1935
 New Zealand vs Wales
 12 - 13
 Arms Park
 Cardiff
 Wales
 
29/11/1924
 New Zealand vs Wales
 19 - 0
 Saint Helen's Ground
 Swansea
 Wales
 
16/12/1905
 New Zealand vs Wales
 0 - 3
 Arms Park
 Cardiff
 Wales

As you can see, it was the ABs who did all the touring up until the much-feted 1969 Welsh team (Triple Crown winners, I believe) turned up and had their asses handed to them on a platter, and haven't got within cooee since.

Graeme Mourie's Grand Slam winning side (nice dive Andy!)

Nice dive indeed. Pity it didn't have anything to do with the winning penalty, no matter how much you want it to. And if you want any proof, look at the video and where Quittendon's pointing.

[Francis]

NZ didn't play Ireland in 1967 because of foot and mouth disease in Ireland.

Yeah that's what I meant, they were probably scared of foot and mouth disease.

Why would the ABs be scared of a team they've never lost to? Let alone an AB team featuring Fergie McCormick, Earle Kirton, Chris Laidlaw, Brian Lochore, Waka Nathan, Colin Meads, Kel Tremain, Bruce McLeod and Ken Gray.

What a bloody great side. I've heard Kiwi's say that is the definitive New Zealand forward pack.

Mind you I think Willie John McBride could sort Colin Meads out. (Though Willie would struggle against the speed, athleticism and line-out jumping of Frik du Preez [who could also kick goals])

Earle Kirton is one of my five favourite All Blacks ever.

Of course, that depends how much you want to skew your figures. Here are the results from 1905 to 1999:

Well of course if they had a winning record from 1905 until 1924, and then from the mid 30s until the late 60s, then that's more than 50 years of the 20th century. Hence, they had a winning record against New Zealand for most of the 20th century. While New Zealand have only had a winning record against them since the late 60s.

If there's one thing that's skewered the stats, it's that more rugby is played today making it seem like New Zealand have always been ridiculously dominant over them. What if more rugby was played during the earlier parts of the 20th century? What about when Ivor Jones played in the 30s, of Cliff Morgan in the 50s etc? Would the stats be more level?

Personally I accept that New Zealand have a better rugby history than Wales and by a considerable margin considering how bad Wales were in the 80s and how worse things got in the 90s. But they did have a winning record for longer periods in the 20th century and I commend them for that.

So it's suprising to revisit history and hear of a time where New Zealand were the number three bananna of the bunch!

In summation:

1. South Africa
2. New Zealand
3. Wales
4. England
5. France
6. Australia

[Smudge]

Originally Posted by Francis

Mind you I think Willie John McBride could sort Colin Meads out.

Willie John's longevity was to be admired, but even Irish appreciate that he was a level down from the physicality and skill of Meads.

Anyway, back onto ignore you go.

[Francis]

Oh you missed my comment on Frik du Preez I edited into my post. Ah well.

[ohtani's jacket]

They also toured in '72/73 and a tour of Ireland, Wales and England in '74. The last proper tours were in '89 and '97.

[ohtani's jacket]

Can't be bothered correcting all of the crap Francis writes, but the Boks failed in their first Grand Slam attempt in 1906 and famously in '68/69. 2004 wasn't pretty either. Ratio is about the same not that anyone cares about Grand Slams won.

[ripper868]

Originally Posted by ohtani's jacket

Can't be bothered correcting all of the crap Francis writes, but the Boks failed in their first Grand Slam attempt in 1906 and famously in '68/69. 2004 wasn't pretty either. Ratio is about the same not that anyone cares about Grand Slams won.

Agree

[Somerset]

Few hours out from the Hong Kong test - I have to say its been a hugely low key build up IMO, guess thats to be expected with nothing but pride on the line. I just wonder if the All Blacks will be a touch rusty, with the likes of Carter, Woodcock, Williams having basically no proper rugby since the Tri Nations.

The decision to play Carter and second five and Donald at first five has come under scrutiny but personally I'm not that unhappy with the decision. Ma'a Nonu's been woefully inconsistent in the last few weeks of the Air New Zealand Cup so having Carter at second five solves that problem and it can't be all bad experimenting with Donald at first five, particularly with nothing on the line. Hosea Gear debuts though on the opposite wing to the one hes been so successful this season for Wellington. Hope to see Corey Jane make an impact off the bench too.

[_Ed_]

Anyone know what sort of crowd they're expecting tonight?