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13th Match - New Zealand v Afghanistan

Who will win the match?


  • Total voters
    8

wellAlbidarned

International Coach
It'd be annoying if Southee plays against the top ranked sides and then gets dunked on here for not taking wickets like Henry took against Sri Lanka and Bangladesh.
i don't think non-nz posters (and Athlai) understand just how bad southee has been in white ball cricket since the last world cup. I'm not even particularly confident henry will do much better against good sides but he's at least earned a chance to prove that unlike southee.
 

Flem274*

123/5
the 'southee sucks at odis since the last world cup' train is entering the station, and blazoned on the side is

45 games, 54 wickets @ 41, economy 5.72

there's just no defending that, yet people are determined to do it.

before someone asks, matt henry in the same time frame has 36 games, 62 wickets @ 28 with an economy rate of 5.65. his performances range from excellent to respectable against all bar england who he has played 4 times.

moving away from pure numbers, i've had the misfortune to witness most of southee's odi work since 2015 and the reasonable fortune to see henry's as well. both are terrible at the death, but henry is a weapon more often than not before the 35th over. both tend to panic if they get hit, but one actually redeems himself with wickets.

feel free to save and reuse this post for future 'tim southee is a good odi bowler just coz' discussions.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
the 'southee sucks at odis since the last world cup' train is entering the station, and blazoned on the side is

45 games, 54 wickets @ 41, economy 5.72

there's just no defending that, yet people are determined to do it.

before someone asks, matt henry in the same time frame has 36 games, 62 wickets @ 28 with an economy rate of 5.65. his performances range from excellent to respectable against all bar england who he has played 4 times.

moving away from pure numbers, i've had the misfortune to witness most of southee's odi work since 2015 and the reasonable fortune to see henry's as well. both are terrible at the death, but henry is a weapon more often than not before the 35th over. both tend to panic if they get hit, but one actually redeems himself with wickets.

feel free to save and reuse this post for future 'tim southee is a good odi bowler just coz' discussions.
I don't really think Southee is that bad at the death; he's certainly much better than Henry. He's just not particularly good during any period whereas Henry is still at least occasionally good with the new ball. Ideally you'd find a way for Henry to just do what he does well rather than picking a player who's "kinda crap but not disastrous at any period", but it's not an ideal world and Henry ends up bowling at the death fairly regularly when he plays. I do think it's a genuine toss up and I'm fully aware how **** Southee has been. It's a toss up because he's been ****; he really should have been much better and made this not a discussion. I'd have actually backed Sodhi in as not played either of them but he's been dire lately.
 

Flem274*

123/5
yeah i still feel like we're recovering from the mascarenhas era where every bowler was objectively worse. in 2015 we could have rocked up with mills, henry and mcclenaghan and still comfortably made the semis (and we won the semi with our batting). we had 6 guys bowling so well.

now look at us.

edit - i'd be interested to see some data on southee at the death because i really don't think that's true. i'm basically hiding behind the couch when anyone bar boult, santa and ferguson bowl after the 40th over tho
 
Last edited:

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
Who else can bowl at the death for NZ (with Boult)?
Ferguson. He usually does. But they can't just bowl eight straight between them at the end so whoever the other bowler is usually ends up bowling in the last eight at some point as well. Southee is just meh in this period where Henry gets pumped (as opposed to up front, where Southee is meh and Henry sometimes takes wickets). Santner, de Grandhomme and Neesham don't really inspire confidence as alternate options for this period either.
 

Mike5181

International Captain
I don't really think Southee is that bad at the death; he's certainly much better than Henry. He's just not particularly good during any period whereas Henry is still at least occasionally good with the new ball. Ideally you'd find a way for Henry to just do what he does well rather than picking a player who's "kinda crap but not disastrous at any period", but it's not an ideal world and Henry ends up bowling at the death fairly regularly when he plays. I do think it's a genuine toss up and I'm fully aware how **** Southee has been. It's a toss up because he's been ****; he really should have been much better and made this not a discussion. I'd have actually backed Sodhi in as not played either of them but he's been dire lately.
Apart from this year where he's played just the 4 games, Southee hasn't averaged under 30 in a year of ODI cricket since 2011. This narrative that he's simply underperforming and we should expect more is just nonsensical at this point. Southee's a 34 career average bowler, and that genuinely reflects his skill level. He's not secretly some gun that'll come out with a slight attitude change.

Henry's not perfect, but along with Ferguson and Boult - the death actually becomes less of a factor because they might actually take wickets up front.
 

harsh.ag

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
It sounds like NZ can finish Henry's overs by 40-42 and give the last 8 to Boult and Ferguson. Just requires some planning.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
Apart from this year where he's played just the 4 games, Southee hasn't averaged under 30 in a year of ODI cricket since 2011. This narrative that he's simply underperforming and we should expect more is just nonsensical at this point. Southee's a 34 career average bowler, and that genuinely reflects his skill level. He's not secretly some gun that'll come out with a slight attitude change..
Nah I totally agree with this, but if Southee was averaging 34 at less than 5.5rpo, and not leaking at the death, I think he'd be worth more to the side than Henry. The problem is that he's been even worse than just his meh his career output.
 

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