Hayden calls subcontinental batsmen 'selfish'

[Slow Love™]

Just because one players comments are possibly a little silly and off-the-mark doesn't mean the next player to speak out about something should be tarred with the same brush. Possibly both Hayden and Ranatunga's comments can be called stupid, maybe only one of them can - it's very simplistic to say 'well, one player made a stupid comment, so any comments by players should be disregarded.

Indeed it would be - thank god I never said that. Where on earth would you get that from my post? I'm essentially saying the same as you here, just from the opposite angle (because that is just as true). You're creating a straw man, because I never even implied what you just accused me of. If you follow the conversation I was having at that point with Fraz (and Swervy) it should be clear enough.

 

[Slow Love™]

Hayden did say 'pretty much all subcontinental teams are like that' I agree. But isn't he referring to the fact that there's one or two players in the team who may go for personal milestones - not the whole team.

No, he's saying "We back ourselves against those countries because they'll get two or three players in the 70s and beyond, and they'll be eyeing off that personal landmark and it'll cost their side 40 or 50 runs as a result. Pretty much all the subcontinental sides are like that." This clearly just refers to whomever those batsmen getting into the 70's are in any given match. I do assume he's not talking about the rank tailenders, but it's certainly a general comment about subcontinent batsmen, and not a specific one targeted at just a few players.

As for putting us to the sword in Test cricket - do you really think there's the level of domination there you're suggesting? THey certainly put us to the sword at home I'll give you that.

They did it to us at home this year. Doesn't mean they completely dominate us, but they've certainly managed to get on top of us far more frequently than any other side in the world.

Sanz makes a bit of a habit of replying to things that he sees in my posts, instead of what he reads, and that ****es me off.

Yeah, I know the feeling...

 

[Slow Love™]

as I said yeah I concede the point that maybe he should have worded it better..I dont think he really meant that all sub continent players are at it, I think he was hinting that in his opinion (and indeed it might not be his true opinion, he might have said it to stir the crap up..we wont know unless he makes a further comment on it) there is a problem in these teams whereby some players may be thinking like this.

Still, "pretty much all subcontinental teams are like that" is pretty far from "there are many subcontinental players like that" and even further from "some subcontinental players are like that".

If he means something else entirely, perhaps using entirely different words might have helped. For someone so critical of others trying to get inside Hayden's head, you're doing anything to avoid dealing with the actual words he said, while you speculate as to what he could have meant (which bears little similarity to what WAS said). I mean, if I say "pretty much all African cricketers are lazy", and after somebody calls me on it, I say "oops, I meant that two or three African cricketers are lazy", I wouldn't exactly be in a position to tell people off for overreacting, or taking my comments the wrong way. Just sayin'.

I am sure many of us have said things before which, in hindsight, we may well have worded them differently.

True, we've all made stupid and insensitive comments before. Just like Hayden did. I'm not arguing that it's not a human thing to do, but surely it's reasonable enough to call people out on them when they do it.

 

[Son Of Coco]

Indeed it would be - thank god I never said that. Where on earth would you get that from my post? I'm essentially saying the same as you here, just from the opposite angle (because that is just as true). You're creating a straw man, because I never even implied what you just accused me of. If you follow the conversation I was having at that point with Fraz (and Swervy) it should be clear enough.

So your comment about Ranatunga wasn't an attempt to prove a point by saying 'Ranatunga's made comments too, and he was a test cricketer so ........'? I don't think anyone's been saying that just because Hayden plays test cricket he must have a valid point - just that there might even be a minute possibility even that he does.

Nobody's being denied their right to an opinion here......you seemed to have also made a bit of a sweeping generalisation regarding where those of us that have said Hayden may have had a point are coming from though. I'm not, or never have, said he's definately right in what he's saying.........and I'm not trying to convince anyone on here that he is.

 

[Slow Love™]

So your comment about Ranatunga wasn't an attempt to prove a point by saying 'Ranatunga's made comments too, and he was a test cricketer so ........'? I don't think anyone's been saying that just because Hayden plays test cricket he must have a valid point - just that there might even be a minute possibility even that he does.

Aaargh! Follow the conversation. I was making the point (sarcastically), that just because someone is an international cricketer, doesn't mean that everything they say is intelligent or honest. Here's how it went:

Swervy: "why is it a silly remark..he probably knows more about the mentality of his opposing players more than anyone of us does"

FRAZ: "good one dude.
And who are us just the ordinary posters."

Me: "Yeah, I know. I always found Ranatunga's comments to be particularly insightful (especially when he called Warne useless before the recent Sri Lanka tour, and when he ridiculed Aussies for being convicts), 'cause like, he's played international cricket, and we haven't."

I'm merely pointing out that just being a cricketer doesn't mean he isn't capable of spouting drivel. Nothing more than that. Earlier it was being insinuated that Hayden's opinion was worth more because his team is nigh on invincible. I disagree with that too. There's absolutely nothing in what I said that suggests that I think that everything a cricketer says is stupid. And you think you're frustrated by Sanz reading things into your posts that you didn't say....

Also, you keep saying "I don't think anybody's been saying...." about things that people in this thread (and Hayden) obviously HAVE said. It's wonderful if you haven't said it, but stop suggest that nobody did, and read the whole thread, for chrissakes. Maybe part of your confusion in this discussion is centered around your assumption that every post here has been somehow directed specifically at you? I dunno.

Nobody's being denied their right to an opinion here......you seemed to have also made a bit of a sweeping generalisation regarding where those of us that have said Hayden may have had a point are coming from though. I'm not, or never have, said he's definately right in what he's saying.........and I'm not trying to convince anyone on here that he is.

What's the sweeping generalisation I'm supposed to have made? And yeah, I know, you think he "might" have a point that pretty much all subcontinental teams are like that. That's exactly where the difference of opinion occurs.

 

[Swervy]

i think we are grinding this one into the ground a bit too much here.

there have been a few people on here who agree wholeheartedly with what Hayden has said, there are a few who have probably sat on the fence about it and said its probably mind games but it isnt beyond the realms of possibilty that he may have a point (I think those people include me and Son Of Coco and maybe even Slow Love, who appears to have more of a gripe on how hayden said it, which is fair enough, I can see where you are coming from),and then there are those who outright dismiss what Hayden has said (Sanz)

We arent going to change our opinions on this...maybe we should let it rest

 

[Slow Love™]

i think we are grinding this one into the ground a bit too much here.

there have been a few people on here who agree wholeheartedly with what Hayden has said, there are a few who have probably sat on the fence about it and said its probably mind games but it isnt beyond the realms of possibilty that he may have a point (I think those people include me and Son Of Coco and maybe even Slow Love, who appears to have more of a gripe on how hayden said it, which is fair enough, I can see where you are coming from),and then there are those who outright dismiss what Hayden has said (Sanz)

We arent going to change our opinions on this...maybe we should let it rest

Yeah, agreed. All that I had left in the tank pretty much was "AAAAggggrrrrrrrr"

EDIT: Except I'm in the "dismissing it outright" camp - 'cause, regardless of whatever else Hayden might have meant, what he actually said was rubbish, IMO.

 

[Son Of Coco]

Aaargh! Follow the conversation. I was making the point (sarcastically), that just because someone is an international cricketer, doesn't mean that everything they say is intelligent or honest. Here's how it went:

Swervy: "why is it a silly remark..he probably knows more about the mentality of his opposing players more than anyone of us does"

FRAZ: "good one dude.
And who are us just the ordinary posters."

Me: "Yeah, I know. I always found Ranatunga's comments to be particularly insightful (especially when he called Warne useless before the recent Sri Lanka tour, and when he ridiculed Aussies for being convicts), 'cause like, he's played international cricket, and we haven't."

I'm merely pointing out that just being a cricketer doesn't mean he isn't capable of spouting drivel. Nothing more than that. Earlier it was being insinuated that Hayden's opinion was worth more because his team is nigh on invincible. I disagree with that too. There's absolutely nothing in what I said that suggests that I think that everything a cricketer says is stupid. And you think you're frustrated by Sanz reading things into your posts that you didn't say....

Also, you keep saying "I don't think anybody's been saying...." about things that people in this thread (and Hayden) obviously HAVE said. It's wonderful if you haven't said it, but stop suggest that nobody did, and read the whole thread, for chrissakes. Maybe part of your confusion in this discussion is centered around your assumption that every post here has been somehow directed specifically at you? I dunno.




What's the sweeping generalisation I'm supposed to have made? And yeah, I know, you think he "might" have a point that pretty much all subcontinental teams are like that. That's exactly where the difference of opinion occurs.

I have been following the conversation mate, and I realise the exact point you were trying to make with the comment about Ranatunga. I wasn't insinuating that you though everything a cricketer says is drivel. Swervy did say that he probably knows more about the opposing players mentality etc though, not that everything an international player says is correct.

You seem to be capable of giving us a fairly thorough run down on exactly what Hayden is or isn't saying, his definite intentions by saying what he said etc ect whereas I'm not so sure. I definately agree that Hayden probably said what he said for the reasons you've stated though...

I was answering regarding a particular post that referred to "you guys" and our attitude towards Sanz and his opinion on the topic. Call me stupid, but the post quoted some of the things I had said in a previous post on here and your answer seemed to be in reference to that.............if what you wrote wasn't about me then it's probably wise not to include quotes from me in the reply.

People are going to interpret what Hayden said in different ways, and obviously we have..........I can understand how people would be offended by this and don't blame them. Comments on here are obviously interpreted differently by different people too cause I can't for the life of me see how some of the answers to posts have been arrived at - looks like we're both having the same problem

I agree with the pulling up stumps though - we're wasting each other time! haha

 

[Sanz]

Whatever it is, I am done with this thread man. I spent a lot of time on it and still I wasn't convinced that Hayden had any point. IMO in an attempt to psyche Indian batsmen out ahead of their India tour, it was a cheapshot on Subcontinent(Indian) batsmen in General. I hope it backfires on his team (although chances are pretty slim).

A couple of years ago, Wasim Akram and some other pakistanis (Including their president) said that India was not touring Pakistan because they were afraid of losing, Well we toured and made History, Last year when India was touring Australia, people talked about 'Chin music' and there also we made history in the test series. I think such statements are real cheapshot at fellow players and is very disrespectul to them and have never liked such statements wether they are made by Sehwag (who is an Idiot) or by some opponent like Hayden.

Fortunately most Indian players are mature enough to not make such remarks about other players and that makes them even greater and I am damn proud of that. Go ahead call them 'Chokers', 'Selfish', 'cheats' or whatever you wish to, it will not change the opinion of 1 billion Indians.

 

[nookie_lk]

well said mate

 

[Slow Love™]

I have been following the conversation mate, and I realise the exact point you were trying to make with the comment about Ranatunga. I wasn't insinuating that you though everything a cricketer says is drivel.

Well, maybe we had a misunderstanding - I was just responding to when you said (regarding my comment re: Ranatunga), "Just because one players comments are possibly a little silly and off-the-mark doesn't mean the next player to speak out about something should be tarred with the same brush." 'Cause I really wasn't doing that in my post about Ranatunga at all.

I was answering regarding a particular post that referred to "you guys" and our attitude towards Sanz and his opinion on the topic. Call me stupid, but the post quoted some of the things I had said in a previous post on here and your answer seemed to be in reference to that.............if what you wrote wasn't about me then it's probably wise not to include quotes from me in the reply.

What I meant by this was that it seemed like you were thinking "hmm, I never said this", and extrapolating to "no one is saying that..." You know?

I agree with the pulling up stumps though - we're wasting each other time! haha

Oh well, it's no worse than a Larrikin thread over at the abc forums...

 

[Swervy]

i thought it was a very interesting debate....beats naming a cricketer whose name begins with K or some letter on on another thread on here

 

[Neil Pickup]

I'm torn here now between closing the thread to stop the misunderstandings, rash generalisations and incomprehension in this thread erupting into a full-scale flame war, and letting it run because, well, it does beat "Kasprowicz""...

Short leash!

 

[Son Of Coco]

Well, maybe we had a misunderstanding - I was just responding to when you said (regarding my comment re: Ranatunga), "Just because one players comments are possibly a little silly and off-the-mark doesn't mean the next player to speak out about something should be tarred with the same brush." 'Cause I really wasn't doing that in my post about Ranatunga at all.



What I meant by this was that it seemed like you were thinking "hmm, I never said this", and extrapolating to "no one is saying that..." You know?



Oh well, it's no worse than a Larrikin thread over at the abc forums...

I do realise that what I said regarding things not being said may have come across a little wrong, and I got a bit lazy on the acknowledging the sarcasm in your original comment about Ranatunga. When I posted my reply I knew it'd get picked up on due to the fact that it was sarcasm and I didn't acknowledge it, but couldn't be bothered going back and changing it! haha I wasn't overly surprised with the response to that!

haha, well any post by Larrikin is guaranteed to cause vigorous debate! Which is entertaining, but always ends up like a bad marriage - with the "you said that", "well, you said that" 's

It was an interesting debate too Swervy, most of the time I come on here and can't remember what I've posted on it the first place. But I had no trouble with this one!

 

[Son Of Coco]

I'm torn here now between closing the thread to stop the misunderstandings, rash generalisations and incomprehension in this thread erupting into a full-scale flame war, and letting it run because, well, it does beat "Kasprowicz""...

Short leash!

Maybe you could open another thread with highlights from this one Neil for other members to peruse.......a lesson in how to misunderstand, generalise and then answer with no regard for the writers original comments. Cricket Web should be educational too! haha One of the threads I'd answered too that I've lost is the one where we were discussing cricket in England, where we played etc do you remember where that was again?

 

[Son Of Coco]

i thought it was a very interesting debate....beats naming a cricketer whose name begins with K or some letter on on another thread on here

haha, yeah. Personally, living just on the NSW side of the border I find the topic about Queenslanders highly offensive. Any chance of shutting that down while you're at it Neil? The chances of things exploding in there are pretty much guaranteed I can tell you.....

 

[Swervy]

I'm torn here now between closing the thread to stop the misunderstandings, rash generalisations and incomprehension in this thread erupting into a full-scale flame war, and letting it run because, well, it does beat "Kasprowicz""...

Short leash!

I think the major players in this one have exhausted what we need to say..i dont think anything was said bad enough to warrant its closure, we did stop short of trading insults as far as I can see (although it was getting pretty close I feel!!!! )

Kasprowicz..ends in a 'z'...erm Zaheer Abbas

 

[Son Of Coco]

I think the major players in this one have exhausted what we need to say..i dont think anything was said bad enough to warrant its closure, we did stop short of trading insults as far as I can see (although it was getting pretty close I feel!!!! )

Kasprowicz..ends in a 'z'...erm Zaheer Abbas

Salim Malik......................uh oh, here we go....

 

[Neil Pickup]

That's off topic. There's less rules there, and everyone ignores everything that's written anyway - think of it as being like lots of posts by Halsey... and this is the thread which was venturing towards the Devon League.

Kadeer Ali. Oh, wait, you said cricketers.

 

[Son Of Coco]

That's off topic. There's less rules there, and everyone ignores everything that's written anyway - think of it as being like lots of posts by Halsey... and this is the thread which was venturing towards the Devon League.

Kadeer Ali. Oh, wait, you said cricketers.

Cheers, I'd lost my place in amongst discussing the value of dot balls etc with Richard.

















.................................................................Inzamam Ul-Haq