Ganguly's achievements

[marc71178]

Originally Posted by ReallyCrazy

It was hilarious when you said Strauss and Bell are better than Ganguly. How many matches have played combined? 5? Now I am going to claim Irfan Pathan is better than Lee, Gillespie and mcgrath. This is the first time you said something really dumb.

Difference being Swervy was comparing up and coming players with a player who is far from the best at what he does.

You're comparing an up and coming player with the best in the world.

[ReallyCrazy]

Originally Posted by marc71178

You said "Ganguly's test record is much better than the record of so called good test batters both in the current era and the past."

I quite conclusively proved it is not.

if you read my post again, you just might realize that I proved conclusively he's better batter than trescothick, vaughan, hussain, thorpe, butcher and chanderpaul and taylor...who are all considered good test batters by quite a few.

chanderpaul, vaughan and thorpe are probably better test batters than ganguly but not by much. But they are very much below him in ODIs. So overall, Ganguly is better.

[ReallyCrazy]

Originally Posted by marc71178

Difference being Swervy was comparing up and coming players with a player who is far from the best at what he does.

You're comparing an up and coming player with the best in the world.

comparing a player who has played 1 test match so far (1 inning i should say) and another player who has played 5 so far to a proven international batter who's been doing it for 8 years now is not just silly. Its also a disgrace.

Just like Swervy sees talent in bell, i see talent in pathan and I can say he's better than McGrath.

[marc71178]

Originally Posted by ReallyCrazy

if you read my post again, you just might realize that I proved conclusively he's better batter than trescothick, vaughan, hussain, thorpe, butcher and chanderpaul and taylor...who are all considered good test batters by quite a few.

chanderpaul, vaughan and thorpe are probably better test batters than ganguly but not by much. But they are very much below him in ODIs. So overall, Ganguly is better.

Right, so in one part of your post you say you've proved conclusively that Ganguly is a better batter than chanderpaul, vaughan and thorpe then you say in the second part OF THE SAME POST that chanderpaul, vaughan and thorpe are proboably better than Ganguly?

If you read what I actually put, I have proved conclusively that the records of all those batsmen I listed are better than the record of Ganguly in Tests, which is what you initially claimed, and that is a simple matter of numbers, rather than opinion, so it can be conclusive.

[ReallyCrazy]

Originally Posted by marc71178

Right, so in one part of your post you say you've proved conclusively that Ganguly is a better batter than chanderpaul, vaughan and thorpe then you say in the second part OF THE SAME POST that chanderpaul, vaughan and thorpe are proboably better than Ganguly?

If you read what I actually put, I have proved conclusively that the records of all those batsmen I listed are better than the record of Ganguly in Tests, which is what you initially claimed, and that is a simple matter of numbers, rather than opinion, so it can be conclusive.

Yes I still say the same. In the first paragraph, I stated that Ganguly is an OVERALL better batter (taking both tests and ODIs into consideration) than Vaughan, Chanderpaul and thorpe. And in the second part, I admit that probably those 3 are very slightly better in tests.

So I hope you understand I am not only talking about tests. I am talking both tests and ODIs. Ganguly's record in tests is only slightly below those 3. But he wins hands down in ODIs.

BTW when trying to name players with a better record than Ganguly, try to name players who are really better...not players who average 0.1 runs more per innings.

[Hit4Six]

Originally Posted by marc71178

Right, so in one part of your post you say you've proved conclusively that Ganguly is a better batter than chanderpaul, vaughan and thorpe then you say in the second part OF THE SAME POST that chanderpaul, vaughan and thorpe are proboably better than Ganguly?

If you read what I actually put, I have proved conclusively that the records of all those batsmen I listed are better than the record of Ganguly in Tests, which is what you initially claimed, and that is a simple matter of numbers, rather than opinion, so it can be conclusive.

ill bet if sourav ganguly played for england and someone was attacking him youd have a very different answer?

[Neil Pickup]

The same way we love Kabir, Solanki, Hick, Ramprakash, Tudor...

[Swervy]

Originally Posted by Hit4Six

ill bet if sourav ganguly played for england and someone was attacking him youd have a very different answer?

its not attacking him (remember it wasnt one of the 'anti-ganguly' peopele who started this thread..whoever did start this surely must have known this kind of response would come out from some of us)...its pointing out that he isnt the be all and end all.

I have pointed out some of the things in his captaincy and batting which I dont rate highly..some of us on here arent just going to accept that he is the best or the greatest when it is blatantly obvious he isnt..would much rather dish out the praise on the truly great players in the Indian team ie.Tendulkar and Dravid

[marc71178]

Originally Posted by ReallyCrazy

So I hope you understand I am not only talking about tests.

Oh yes, you made that quite evident by saying:

Ganguly's test record is much better than the record of so called good test batters both in the current era and the past.

That clearly shows that you meant ODI's

Originally Posted by ReallyCrazy

BTW when trying to name players with a better record than Ganguly, try to name players who are really better...not players who average 0.1 runs more per innings.

Most of the players I named have far better records than Ganguly (a fact you claimed in the above quoted post)

[honestbharani]

Sourav is definitely an all time great ODI player and definitely is an all time great captain, atleast in Indian cricket. I still think he has done enough to be mentioned amongst some very good captains who have captained sides in the history of the game. And I think he is a pretty good test match player. He has his weaknesses, he has his strengths and at the end of the day, he is a guy who can average in excess of 40 in test cricket, hallmark of a good player. Plus he is a useful seamer at times. '

The problem here seems to be that most people tend to either over rate or under rate Sourav. They either think he is great (which he is not) or they think he is poor (which he is not either).

[Deja moo]

Originally Posted by marc71178

Most of the players I named have far better records than Ganguly (a fact you claimed in the above quoted post)

Marc , you got to choose your set of good players(which was off the mark really , cause I dont think he was comparing Ganguly with the likes of Sachin , Ponting etc.in the first place) and he got to choose his set of good players ( and made a very valid point . He did mention good players who are rated widely as "better" than Ganguly .And he rightly questioned that view)

[marc71178]

Originally Posted by Deja moo

Marc , you got to choose your set of good players(which was off the mark really , cause I dont think he was comparing Ganguly with the likes of Sachin , Ponting etc.in the first place) and he got to choose his set of good players ( and made a very valid point . He did mention good players who are rated widely as "better" than Ganguly .And he rightly questioned that view)

No, he said quite specifically Ganguly's record is better - I showed quite clearly it is not!

[ReallyCrazy]

Originally Posted by marc71178

No, he said quite specifically Ganguly's record is better - I showed quite clearly it is not!

no you didn't clearly show it is not. You named a lot of guys from England who averaged maybe 1 run more than Ganguly (and regarded as good test players)...thats far from clear. And yes, you did name Sachin, Lara and Ponting as well but I never claimed Ganguly was as good as them.

[Swervy]

Originally Posted by ReallyCrazy

no you didn't clearly show it is not. You named a lot of guys from England who averaged maybe 1 run more than Ganguly (and regarded as good test players)...thats far from clear. And yes, you did name Sachin, Lara and Ponting as well but I never claimed Ganguly was as good as them.

So tell me ..why do you not think Thorpe or Vaughan etc are better batsmen than Ganguly...and lets talk about in tests..the true indicator of a players talent

[Neil Pickup]

Ganguly's career PwC Rankings:

20/06/1996 47 England Lord's
04/07/1996 41 England Nottingham
10/10/1996 31 Australia Delhi
27/11/1996 41 South Africa Kolkata
08/12/1996 34 South Africa Kanpur
26/12/1996 41 South Africa Durban
02/01/1997 42 South Africa Cape Town
16/01/1997 33 South Africa Johannesburg
06/03/1997 32 West Indies Kingston
14/03/1997 36 West Indies Port-of-Spain
27/03/1997 36 West Indies Bridgetown
04/04/1997 36 West Indies St John's
02/08/1997 42 Sri Lanka Colombo (RPS)
13/08/1997 34 Sri Lanka Colombo (SSC)
19/11/1997 28 Sri Lanka Mohali
26/11/1997 16 Sri Lanka Nagpur
03/12/1997 13 Sri Lanka Mumbai
06/03/1998 11 Australia Chennai
18/03/1998 11 Australia Kolkata
25/03/1998 16 Australia Bangalore
07/10/1998 11 Zimbabwe Harare
26/12/1998 16 New Zealand Wellington
02/01/1999 11 New Zealand Hamilton
28/01/1999 10 Pakistan Chennai
04/02/1999 9 Pakistan Delhi
16/02/1999 10 Pakistan Kolkata
24/02/1999 10 Sri Lanka Colombo (SSC)
10/10/1999 11 New Zealand Mohali
22/10/1999 15 New Zealand Kanpur
29/10/1999 11 New Zealand Ahmedabad
10/12/1999 8 Australia Adelaide
26/12/1999 12 Australia Melbourne
02/01/2000 14 Australia Sydney
24/02/2000 16 South Africa Mumbai
02/03/2000 21 South Africa Bangalore
10/11/2000 23 Bangladesh Dhaka
18/11/2000 22 Zimbabwe Delhi
25/11/2000 26 Zimbabwe Nagpur
27/02/2001 27 Australia Mumbai
11/03/2001 28 Australia Kolkata
18/03/2001 31 Australia Chennai
07/06/2001 36 Zimbabwe Bulawayo
15/06/2001 38 Zimbabwe Harare
14/08/2001 46 Sri Lanka Galle
22/08/2001 39 Sri Lanka Kandy
30/08/2001 41 Sri Lanka Colombo (SSC)
03/11/2001 42 South Africa Bloemfontein
16/11/2001 39 South Africa Port Elizabeth
03/12/2001 40 England Mohali
11/12/2001 41 England Ahmedabad
19/12/2001 46 England Bangalore
21/02/2002 46 Zimbabwe Nagpur
28/02/2002 39 Zimbabwe Delhi
11/04/2002 40 West Indies Georgetown
19/04/2002 38 West Indies Port-of-Spain
02/05/2002 36 West Indies Bridgetown
10/05/2002 36 West Indies St John's
18/05/2002 37 West Indies Kingston
25/07/2002 40 England Lord's
08/08/2002 39 England Nottingham
22/08/2002 32 England Leeds
05/09/2002 31 England The Oval
09/10/2002 34 West Indies Mumbai
17/10/2002 36 West Indies Chennai
30/10/2002 38 West Indies Kolkata
12/12/2002 38 New Zealand Wellington
19/12/2002 39 New Zealand Hamilton
08/10/2003 37 New Zealand Ahmedabad
04/12/2003 33 Australia Brisbane
12/12/2003 33 Australia Adelaide
26/12/2003 34 Australia Melbourne
02/01/2004 35 Australia Sydney
13/04/2004 35 Pakistan Rawalpindi

He's only been in the top ten five times, and most of the time he's hovered around the edge of the top 30 (mean 29.82, mode 36, median 34)

Let's compare this to Thorpe:

He's been in the top ten 31 times, and his average position looks just inside the top twenty (mean 19.68, mode 9, median 17).

01/07/1993 45 Australia Nottingham
22/07/1993 74 Australia Leeds
05/08/1993 50 Australia Birmingham
19/02/1994 59 West Indies Kingston
17/03/1994 61 West Indies Georgetown
25/03/1994 50 West Indies Port-of-Spain
08/04/1994 41 West Indies Bridgetown
16/04/1994 44 West Indies St John's
04/08/1994 37 South Africa Leeds
18/08/1994 23 South Africa The Oval
25/11/1994 22 Australia Brisbane
24/12/1994 21 Australia Melbourne
01/01/1995 20 Australia Sydney
26/01/1995 10 Australia Adelaide
03/02/1995 7 Australia Perth
08/06/1995 7 West Indies Leeds
22/06/1995 6 West Indies Lord's
06/07/1995 6 West Indies Birmingham
27/07/1995 5 West Indies Manchester
10/08/1995 4 West Indies Nottingham
24/08/1995 4 West Indies The Oval
16/11/1995 4 South Africa Centurion
30/11/1995 7 South Africa Johannesburg
15/12/1995 10 South Africa Durban
26/12/1995 11 South Africa Port Elizabeth
04/01/1996 8 South Africa Cape Town
06/06/1996 9 India Birmingham
20/06/1996 8 India Lord's
04/07/1996 9 India Nottingham
25/07/1996 9 Pakistan Lord's
08/08/1996 9 Pakistan Leeds
22/08/1996 11 Pakistan The Oval
18/12/1996 17 Zimbabwe Bulawayo
26/12/1996 16 Zimbabwe Harare
24/01/1997 12 New Zealand Auckland
06/02/1997 8 New Zealand Wellington
13/02/1997 12 New Zealand Christchurch
05/06/1997 5 Australia Birmingham
19/06/1997 4 Australia Lord's
03/07/1997 9 Australia Manchester
25/07/1997 12 Australia Leeds
07/08/1997 4 Australia Nottingham
21/08/1997 4 Australia The Oval
29/01/1998 3 West Indies Kingston
05/02/1998 4 West Indies Port-of-Spain
13/02/1998 6 West Indies Port-of-Spain
27/02/1998 9 West Indies Georgetown
12/03/1998 6 West Indies Bridgetown
20/03/1998 6 West Indies St John's
04/06/1998 4 South Africa Birmingham
18/06/1998 7 South Africa Lord's
02/07/1998 16 South Africa Manchester
20/11/1998 19 Australia Brisbane
01/07/1999 23 New Zealand Birmingham
22/07/1999 26 New Zealand Lord's
05/08/1999 28 New Zealand Manchester
19/08/1999 26 New Zealand The Oval
07/08/2000 37 West Indies Manchester
17/08/2000 35 West Indies Leeds
31/08/2000 35 West Indies The Oval
15/11/2000 33 Pakistan Lahore
29/11/2000 32 Pakistan Faisalabad
07/12/2000 31 Pakistan Karachi
26/02/2001 30 Sri Lanka Galle
07/03/2001 30 Sri Lanka Kandy
15/03/2001 17 Sri Lanka Colombo (SSC)
17/05/2001 10 Pakistan Lord's
31/05/2001 9 Pakistan Manchester
19/07/2001 10 Australia Lord's
03/12/2001 18 India Mohali
13/03/2002 15 New Zealand Christchurch
21/03/2002 17 New Zealand Wellington
30/03/2002 19 New Zealand Auckland
16/05/2002 22 Sri Lanka Lord's
30/05/2002 14 Sri Lanka Birmingham
13/06/2002 15 Sri Lanka Manchester
25/07/2002 20 India Lord's
08/09/2003 28 South Africa The Oval
21/10/2003 24 Bangladesh Dhaka
29/10/2003 28 Bangladesh Chittagong
02/12/2003 27 Sri Lanka Galle
10/12/2003 26 Sri Lanka Kandy
18/12/2003 29 Sri Lanka Colombo (SSC)
11/03/2004 29 West Indies Kingston
19/03/2004 22 West Indies Port-of-Spain
01/04/2004 18 West Indies Bridgetown
10/04/2004 18 West Indies St John's
24/05/2004 17 New Zealand Lord's
03/06/2004 18 New Zealand Leeds
10/06/2004 17 New Zealand Nottingham
22/07/2004 20 West Indies Lord's
01/08/2004 19 West Indies Birmingham
12/08/2004 16 West Indies Manchester