Which team was the greatest

aussie_beater · 15-07-2002, 07:59 PM

Which team was the greatest among the following two ?

Lloyd's West Indians or Waugh's Aussies.

I think there shouldn't be any debate on the greatness of Lloyd's pack and Waugh's Aussies don't really measure up to that team's level of excellence, but as a lot of talk has been going on lately on the claim to greatness of the current Aussie side, I thought I would just toss it up to see everybody's views on it.

scorpio · 15-07-2002, 08:02 PM

windies....no question abt that. Aussie would be a distant second.

Oh this is actually like comparing this aussie team with the current SA teams..lol

[Edited on 7/15/02 by scorpio]

aussie_beater · 15-07-2002, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Oh this is actually like comparing this aussie team with SA teams..lol

Spot on !

anthonysw · 15-07-2002, 08:19 PM

I see we have some Australia fans amongst us

Top_Cat · 15-07-2002, 08:32 PM

Tough to say, even on a player-by-player comparison. On pure talent, there are equal amounts on both sides with the West Indians probably being superior on the player comparison. But one thing they both had was an unquenchable will to win. Either way, the team that won 16 Tests in a row vs the Lloyd West Indians went like this I think:

Michael Slater vs Gordon Greenidge

Both players had comparable averages (44 for Greenidge, 42 for Slater) and similar attacking play so I'd say this one is too close to call in terms of who was the superior player. Both have played innings under pressure and have similar top scores too..............looking at their careers, it's quite frightening how similar these guys are!

Blewett vs Haynes

Haynes wins out here, hands down. Blewwy had the potential to be an incredible player but for some reasons (some of which include being messed with by the selectors), including technical ones, Blewwy came up short as a Test player. One thing, though; it wasn't ability.

Haynes was one of the most complete opening batsmen of all time with a sound defence, every shot in the book without a preference for any of them (possibly leg-glances and drives) and the grit and determination of the hardest fighter. A proven legend.

Justin Langer vs Viv Richards

Do we even need to look at this?

Justin Langer touched (and is continuing to do so) some incredible form in the 1999-2000 home summer but to ven compare him to Viv is a stretch.

Lawrence Rowe/Richie Richardson vs Mark Waugh

Both were equally talented and similarly styled but Lawrence Rowe never took advantage of his talent like Mark Waugh did.

Richie Richardson was an immensely gifted player and I used to admire the sheer arrogance of his play and for pure brutal talent was up there with the best but after his break-down in the mid-90's, was never the same player. When a player who was previously proud of never wearing a helmet starts wearing one, you know his confidence has taken a beating and if there was one thing Ritchie's play needed it was confidence. So for displaying taent over a long period of time, Mark Waugh wins out again, even though they were on par when their confidence was at their highest.

Clive Lloyd vs Steve Waugh

Steve Waugh wins this one easily. Clive was a heck of a player and after Packer, was up there with the best for pure hitters but Steve Waugh is the finer batsman of the two quite comfortably.

Larry Gomes/Gus Logie vs Ricky Ponting

Tough to say because Larry Gomes and Gus Logie were proven consistent performers and Rick Ponting is well on the way but for pure batting talent, Ponting is the man.

Jeffery Dujon vs Adam Gilchrist

Adam Gilchrist is the superior batsman by quite a distance but Dujon just beats Gilchrist for keeping skills at this stage.

As for the bowlers, well there were so many in each team at any one time, it's hard to say but overall, the WI team had the best overall strength in bowling with Holding, Roberts, Marshall, Garner and Walsh but the Aussies have some standout individual performers. Glenn McGrath and Shane Warne compare quite favourably to all of the West Indian bowlers but other than that, the West Indians trounce the Aussie bowling. Jason Gillespie is yet to prove just how good he is so he doesnt really compare to the West Indian proven performers but he will show us in he coming years I think.

And therein lies the problem; we're comparing players who have long since finished their career with those who are yet to finish. It's a tough comparison to make because Jason Gillespie could prove to be one of the greatest ever bowlers; Justin Langer and Mat Hayden have already equalled the number of 200+ partnerships Greenidge and Haynes were involved in and they've only been playing together for just over a year and Warnie may yet surprise us.

Anyway, as for individual contests I would have liked to have seen between these guys, here we go:

Gordon Greenidge and Glenn McGrath: Both snarling competitors; would be a joy to watch.

Viv Richards and Glenn Mcrath or Shane Warne: All three like to dominate and Viv used to thrive if anyone gave him any verbals so with both Glenn and Shane unable to keep their mouth shut, I have a sneaking suspicion who would win but it'd be great to watch anyway!

Michael Holding and Mark Waugh: Two of the smoothest players in cricket, this would be a contest of who can look the coolest while winning the contest.

Malcolm Marshall and Mike Slater: Some fireworks here. Marshall didn't like being hit for runs and Michael used to love belting the best bowlers around so this would be interesting.

Gordon Greenidge and Shane Warne: I'd just be interested to see how Gordon would have tried to dominate Warne.

aussie_beater · 15-07-2002, 09:32 PM

You don't have to go into player by player analysis to call this one.One of the simplest reasons as to why Llyod's gang was the greatest is because they did not ever let the opposition think that they had a chance.The Aussies cannot claim that by any stretch of imagination.That Carribean team would thrash anybody anywhere.... no "last frontier" business.All frontiers had to fall and that was that.The way they dominated world cricket at home and abroad was phenomenal and unmatched.

And Michael Slater is no comparison to Gordon Greenidge.He was second to Vivie in that team and was one of the most consistent.Also, he scored runs against all and sundry....come spin or pace, Greenidge was always belting them around the park. Slater had a peak and that's all.He is nowhere near Greenidge's consistency.

Top_Cat · 15-07-2002, 09:54 PM

Quote:

And Michael Slater is no comparison to Gordon Greenidge.He was second to Vivie in that team and was one of the most consistent.Also, he scored runs against all and sundry....come spin or pace, Greenidge was always belting them around the park. Slater had a peak and that's all.He is nowhere near Greenidge's consistency.

Well I won't argue stats wih you because I know how similar they were but in my opinion, when Slater had his technical side up to par before his rather public nervous breakdwn, he and Gordon compared favourably. I think you might be romanticising a former player just because of who he was, rather than what he did. The facts remain that their records are VERY similar. And Slater did it against spin and pace against all countries too. The two weaknesses in his game were against India and a little against the WI. Other than that, he was VERY consistent.

Gordon had his weak games against Pakistan for the main part and was also very consistent. They were both very attacking players, had rock-solid defences and were technically of a high standard (though Slater developed an angled bat later on and Greenidge had problems with short ones later on).

So having seen quite a bit of both, I reckon they were very similar players and just as dangerous to opponents as each other.

Top_Cat · 15-07-2002, 10:00 PM

Quote:

no "last frontier" business.All frontiers had to fall and that was that

Errr, New Zealand in 1980? Okay so it wasn't exactly the 'last frontier' but the West Indians were at somewhere near their peack at that stage and they got beaten 1-0.

WIC_rules · 15-07-2002, 11:26 PM

Never saw the Windies team play during their peak . Only heard about 'em. But let me get this straight. The Windies were indomitable for a period of 15 long years . They dominated world cricket for the best part between 1970-1985. The aussie reign has lasted only about 2 years. Besides , most of their victories have come at home. Think this is a no-contest. The windies seem to win it hands down.

Top_Cat · 15-07-2002, 11:45 PM

Quote:

The Windies were indomitable for a period of 15 long years . They dominated world cricket for the best part between 1970-1985.

ErrrHMMMM, I don't think so. The West Indies didn't start to win anything until they beat England in England in 1976. I mean, in the 1975/'76 series against Australia, they lost 5-1. Realistically, they didnt start beating EVERYONE until 1979 or thereabouts, right after they lost to India in India.

Anyway, you say the dominance of the Aussies only lasted two years. Well that was only when the Aussies didn't lose a Test match. The West Indies went for a similar period of time without losing a Test match too. No team goes through an extended period of time without losing a Test series and the West Indies were no exception. They lost to India in 1978 and to New Zealand in 1980. The Aussies lost to India twice in the mid-90's (don't even DARE count the one-off Test.

) and once to Sri Lanka. And before you mention the 0-0 tied Test series between Australia and NZ last year, may I remind you that the West Indies tied TWO Test series with Pakistan in the late 80's at home and away.

Quote:

Besides , most of their victories have come at home. Think this is a no-contest. The windies seem to win it hands down.

The majority, yes. But the West Indies also won the majority of their Tests at home.

Look, I'm not disputing that the West Indies of the 80's were a superior team. But credit where credit's due, eh? I mean the Aussies were the first team since NZ in 1980 to beat them in a Test series in 1995. Add that to a World Cup, World Cup final appearance and Test wins away against New Zealand, Pakistan, the West Indies, England and South Africa and you have the most dominant team of the 90's right there. The only team to consistently beat them away has been India. Other than an away series loss to Sri Lanka in 2000, Pakistan a couple of years earlier and the losses to India and you have a pretty good record.

lord_of_darkness · 15-07-2002, 11:46 PM

i would say West Indies was a great team on the whole , but every team had its great glory years in cricket is that right ?

Kiwi · 16-07-2002, 01:38 AM

I would say the Windies. Although I never saw them play in there peak, from what I have heard they were awesome

luckyeddie · 16-07-2002, 02:11 AM

It was often said that Clive Lloyd wasn't a great captain because he didn't need to be. I think that this assessment is a little harsh, and that if the West Indies had been a little less infallible, Lloyd's captaincy would have shone like a beacon.
My vote as to the best team of all time would have to be the West Indies - just. Although they had an excellent batting line-up, it was the bowling which was their strength. Malc, 'Bird', 'Death', Roberts, it didn't matter. See off two, there's another couple behind. They were probably the reason why the batting line-up was so strong too. Imagine facing those guys in Shell Shield week-in, week-out. You get good or you get out.

aussie_beater · 16-07-2002, 06:58 AM

Quote:

I think you might be romanticising a former player just because of who he was, rather than what he did.

Well, look at Gordon Greenidges's consistency over all those years that he was around and compare it to Michael Slater who is almost gone from the scene now after..how many ? ....four/five years or so. That's where Greenidge is way above Slater.

And as for West Indies losing to NZ in 1980, it happened just before they peaked and after that series I don't remember them losing a test series well into early nineties or was it the 1995 series that Mark Taylor's Aussies won ? Yes they lost some matches and had some drawn series in between and one of the most humiliating was Abdul Qadir's demolition of West Indies in Faisalabad in 1986/87 timeframe.

I am not saying this Aussie team isn't great.Otherwise we wouldn't have been having this discussion in the first place.But the fact is, the sort of domination shown by the Windies is well beyond this Aussie team.

scorpio · 16-07-2002, 07:51 AM

as much as i believe slater is an ass after his mumbai antics i really think he is almost as good as greenidge is.

he has a full range of shots. played spinners as well as pacers well. and more often than not ran away with the match with his stunning stroke play. he has 14 centuries and 9 90's !!! scary. i dont understand how he could be so beneath gordon ?

15-07-2002, 07:59 PM	#1 (permalink)
aussie_beater State Vice-Captain Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: North Carolina, USA Posts: 1,068	Which team was the greatest Which team was the greatest among the following two ? Lloyd's West Indians or Waugh's Aussies. I think there shouldn't be any debate on the greatness of Lloyd's pack and Waugh's Aussies don't really measure up to that team's level of excellence, but as a lot of talk has been going on lately on the claim to greatness of the current Aussie side, I thought I would just toss it up to see everybody's views on it. __________________ Flames are welcome, but beware of the Backdraft

15-07-2002, 08:02 PM	#2 (permalink)
scorpio U19 Cricketer Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: utah,US Posts: 416	windies....no question abt that. Aussie would be a distant second. Oh this is actually like comparing this aussie team with the current SA teams..lol [Edited on 7/15/02 by scorpio] __________________ "We've been doubling sales every 18 months. However, when you start from zero, it takes a long while." -- Stephen Yeo, a marketing director at Windows-terminal manufacturer Wyse, explaining his company's less-than-meteoric rise, to ZDNet UK

15-07-2002, 08:19 PM	#4 (permalink)
anthonysw U19 Cricketer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: (Adelaide) Australia Posts: 403	I see we have some Australia fans amongst us __________________ -----------------My Signature-----------------

15-07-2002, 08:32 PM	#5 (permalink)
Top_Cat Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Adelaide, South Australia Posts: 21,197	Tough to say, even on a player-by-player comparison. On pure talent, there are equal amounts on both sides with the West Indians probably being superior on the player comparison. But one thing they both had was an unquenchable will to win. Either way, the team that won 16 Tests in a row vs the Lloyd West Indians went like this I think: Michael Slater vs Gordon Greenidge Both players had comparable averages (44 for Greenidge, 42 for Slater) and similar attacking play so I'd say this one is too close to call in terms of who was the superior player. Both have played innings under pressure and have similar top scores too..............looking at their careers, it's quite frightening how similar these guys are! Blewett vs Haynes Haynes wins out here, hands down. Blewwy had the potential to be an incredible player but for some reasons (some of which include being messed with by the selectors), including technical ones, Blewwy came up short as a Test player. One thing, though; it wasn't ability. Haynes was one of the most complete opening batsmen of all time with a sound defence, every shot in the book without a preference for any of them (possibly leg-glances and drives) and the grit and determination of the hardest fighter. A proven legend. Justin Langer vs Viv Richards Do we even need to look at this? Justin Langer touched (and is continuing to do so) some incredible form in the 1999-2000 home summer but to ven compare him to Viv is a stretch. Lawrence Rowe/Richie Richardson vs Mark Waugh Both were equally talented and similarly styled but Lawrence Rowe never took advantage of his talent like Mark Waugh did. Richie Richardson was an immensely gifted player and I used to admire the sheer arrogance of his play and for pure brutal talent was up there with the best but after his break-down in the mid-90's, was never the same player. When a player who was previously proud of never wearing a helmet starts wearing one, you know his confidence has taken a beating and if there was one thing Ritchie's play needed it was confidence. So for displaying taent over a long period of time, Mark Waugh wins out again, even though they were on par when their confidence was at their highest. Clive Lloyd vs Steve Waugh Steve Waugh wins this one easily. Clive was a heck of a player and after Packer, was up there with the best for pure hitters but Steve Waugh is the finer batsman of the two quite comfortably. Larry Gomes/Gus Logie vs Ricky Ponting Tough to say because Larry Gomes and Gus Logie were proven consistent performers and Rick Ponting is well on the way but for pure batting talent, Ponting is the man. Jeffery Dujon vs Adam Gilchrist Adam Gilchrist is the superior batsman by quite a distance but Dujon just beats Gilchrist for keeping skills at this stage. As for the bowlers, well there were so many in each team at any one time, it's hard to say but overall, the WI team had the best overall strength in bowling with Holding, Roberts, Marshall, Garner and Walsh but the Aussies have some standout individual performers. Glenn McGrath and Shane Warne compare quite favourably to all of the West Indian bowlers but other than that, the West Indians trounce the Aussie bowling. Jason Gillespie is yet to prove just how good he is so he doesnt really compare to the West Indian proven performers but he will show us in he coming years I think. And therein lies the problem; we're comparing players who have long since finished their career with those who are yet to finish. It's a tough comparison to make because Jason Gillespie could prove to be one of the greatest ever bowlers; Justin Langer and Mat Hayden have already equalled the number of 200+ partnerships Greenidge and Haynes were involved in and they've only been playing together for just over a year and Warnie may yet surprise us. Anyway, as for individual contests I would have liked to have seen between these guys, here we go: Gordon Greenidge and Glenn McGrath: Both snarling competitors; would be a joy to watch. Viv Richards and Glenn Mcrath or Shane Warne: All three like to dominate and Viv used to thrive if anyone gave him any verbals so with both Glenn and Shane unable to keep their mouth shut, I have a sneaking suspicion who would win but it'd be great to watch anyway! Michael Holding and Mark Waugh: Two of the smoothest players in cricket, this would be a contest of who can look the coolest while winning the contest. Malcolm Marshall and Mike Slater: Some fireworks here. Marshall didn't like being hit for runs and Michael used to love belting the best bowlers around so this would be interesting. Gordon Greenidge and Shane Warne: I'd just be interested to see how Gordon would have tried to dominate Warne. __________________ Check out my bands! The Colourphonics http://www.youtube.com/user/TheColourphonics http://twitter.com/colourphonics Candice and The Arcade Villains http://triplejunearthed.com.au/Candi...ArcadeVillains

15-07-2002, 11:26 PM	#9 (permalink)
WIC_rules Cricket Spectator Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Bombay , India Posts: 17	Never saw the Windies team play during their peak . Only heard about 'em. But let me get this straight. The Windies were indomitable for a period of 15 long years . They dominated world cricket for the best part between 1970-1985. The aussie reign has lasted only about 2 years. Besides , most of their victories have come at home. Think this is a no-contest. The windies seem to win it hands down. __________________ Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, and professionals built the Titanic

15-07-2002, 09:32 PM	#6 (permalink)
aussie_beater State Vice-Captain Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: North Carolina, USA Posts: 1,068	You don't have to go into player by player analysis to call this one.One of the simplest reasons as to why Llyod's gang was the greatest is because they did not ever let the opposition think that they had a chance.The Aussies cannot claim that by any stretch of imagination.That Carribean team would thrash anybody anywhere.... no "last frontier" business.All frontiers had to fall and that was that.The way they dominated world cricket at home and abroad was phenomenal and unmatched. And Michael Slater is no comparison to Gordon Greenidge.He was second to Vivie in that team and was one of the most consistent.Also, he scored runs against all and sundry....come spin or pace, Greenidge was always belting them around the park. Slater had a peak and that's all.He is nowhere near Greenidge's consistency.

15-07-2002, 11:46 PM	#11 (permalink)
lord_of_darkness Cricket Web XI Moderator Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Auckland , New Zealand Posts: 13,252	i would say West Indies was a great team on the whole , but every team had its great glory years in cricket is that right ? __________________ Don L-o-d , Legion Of Doom Lords Lounge, Off Topic, The Happening Place in CW and OT. Co Chairman CWBCC - Cricketweb XI - CW Green \| Manager of Hampshire CC - Wccc \| Chairman of the Muralitharan Supporters Club ~MSC~ \| Current Stats: 2* - 17-4-35-3 - Season Ends.. Current Record Batting - RHB: M:48 Inns:43 Runs:457 H/S:33* Ave:15.5 N.O:10 Bowling - Off Spin: O:280 M:40 Runs:975 Wickets:104 Ave:9.3 S.R:15.6

16-07-2002, 01:38 AM	#12 (permalink)
Kiwi State Vice-Captain Join Date: May 2002 Location: New Zealand Posts: 1,079	I would say the Windies. Although I never saw them play in there peak, from what I have heard they were awesome

16-07-2002, 02:11 AM	#13 (permalink)
luckyeddie Hall of Fame Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Derby, England Posts: 17,631	It was often said that Clive Lloyd wasn't a great captain because he didn't need to be. I think that this assessment is a little harsh, and that if the West Indies had been a little less infallible, Lloyd's captaincy would have shone like a beacon. My vote as to the best team of all time would have to be the West Indies - just. Although they had an excellent batting line-up, it was the bowling which was their strength. Malc, 'Bird', 'Death', Roberts, it didn't matter. See off two, there's another couple behind. They were probably the reason why the batting line-up was so strong too. Imagine facing those guys in Shell Shield week-in, week-out. You get good or you get out. __________________ Nigel Clough's Black and White Army, beating Forest away with 10 men

16-07-2002, 07:51 AM	#15 (permalink)
scorpio U19 Cricketer Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: utah,US Posts: 416	as much as i believe slater is an ass after his mumbai antics i really think he is almost as good as greenidge is. he has a full range of shots. played spinners as well as pacers well. and more often than not ran away with the match with his stunning stroke play. he has 14 centuries and 9 90's !!! scary. i dont understand how he could be so beneath gordon ?

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