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Robert Key to replace Butcher?

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Richard said:
He's been scoring heavily in the First-Class game all season. This double-century, in the First-Class game, doesn't show anything we didn't already know.

I disagree, it showed to me he has got what it takes to score runs in Test Cricket, rather than just at domestic level.
 

Mr. P

International Vice-Captain
Richard said:
Really, you shouldn't need to be instructed to attempt to score singles when there are gaps in the field. Any decent connasseur of the one-day game knows that.
And personally I don't think he should make the England-one-day-side, because he can't score the singles when they're needed.
I actually never said he should be in the side. However I think with some of batsmen there might be a need to be taught or told to hit the singles. If he is at that standard he should eventually do it easy...
 

badgerhair

U19 Vice-Captain
marc71178 said:
I disagree, it showed to me he has got what it takes to score runs in Test Cricket, rather than just at domestic level.
Is that just the trivial point that it was a Test match and he got runs in it, or does your statement have some wider implication?

Cheers,

Mike
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
It was meant to have wider implication, I think it says something about his mental strength that runs in County Cricket don't say.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Arjun said:
Just one series where he hardly got an opportunity..
he got a couple of chances in the natwest 2003 and failed

Arjun said:
On form, he would be a good pick...
and what do you think he was in now?

Arjun said:
He hit more than 20 (how many) fours. He does not hit too many sixes, but in form, he should do so.
so averaging nearly 100 in domestic cricket this season and hes still not in form is it?

Arjun said:
That odd six or four can change a match, but he should not try to be an Adam Gilchrist..
what are you talking about?how can the odd 6 or 4 change a test match? rubbish
even in an ODI match taking singles is more important than hitting sixes, except perhaps in the slog over....
Form and team orders may change that.

Arjun said:
At least 11 Australian Test players may not agree fully.
yes because they all hit 4s and 6s that win test matches.....
 
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Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
No, no, that's his Championship average. The Championship is First-Class-cricket.
In the one-day National League his average is 14.something. Disappointing, by recent season's standards.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Mr. P said:
I actually never said he should be in the side. However I think with some of batsmen there might be a need to be taught or told to hit the singles. If he is at that standard he should eventually do it easy...
No, no, I never meant you did.
And I thoroughly agree that some (make that all) batsmen who are playing in a one-day-international side need to be able to score singles, plenty of them.
But it's not just a case of being told - it is a case of being taught, learning.
And the best place for that is in the nets, not in the middle. Make that the only place.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
marc71178 said:
It was meant to have wider implication, I think it says something about his mental strength that runs in County Cricket don't say.
I never thought it was that likely he lacked mental strength.
His previous failures in Test-cricket say far more about the stupidity of picking openers to bat at five than any lack of mental strength.
And his three failures in summer 2002 as an opener said something about luck (a ball rebounding onto the stumps off the body), a slight flaw in technique (the bottom-handed jab) and the fallibility that most batsmen who have ever faced Anil Kumble have ever shown (going back and being trapped lbw by the skidding ball).
 

wpdavid

Hall of Fame Member
Richard said:
I never thought it was that likely he lacked mental strength.
His previous failures in Test-cricket say far more about the stupidity of picking openers to bat at five than any lack of mental strength.
And his three failures in summer 2002 as an opener said something about luck (a ball rebounding onto the stumps off the body), a slight flaw in technique (the bottom-handed jab) and the fallibility that most batsmen who have ever faced Anil Kumble have ever shown (going back and being trapped lbw by the skidding ball).
What we've seen today isn't inspiring, as he could easily have gone the way he eventually did a couple of times before he successfully edged one to Lara. Which was also true at Lord's, although there he did capitalise on his luck superbly. Not that Butcher never flirts outside off stump, of course, but that's another matter.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
I was also concerned by Key, and would actually support the recall of Butcher ahead of him, double hundred and all.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Key's shot-selection is still not consistently excellent, but it was from 42 onwards at Lord's.
We've just got to see how it unfolds.
 

badgerhair

U19 Vice-Captain
marc71178 said:
I was also concerned by Key, and would actually support the recall of Butcher ahead of him, double hundred and all.
I agree. You're right that the double hundred bespeaks a level of application which isn't really demonstrated in county cricket, and also not to go any further overboard about it, in my view.

But he is an example of someone where Richard's first-chance averages tell you something, because I suspect that he has a whole cluster of first chances around the 20 mark, the period when he feels he is now roughly settled and starts wanting to go on and assert himself. He doesn't accelerate smoothly, it would seem.

And despite Butcher's relatively low productivity this last year or so, he's still more likely to reach 60 than Key, I reckon.

Cheers,

Mike
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I will now be very surprised if Butcher doesn't return for The Third Test.
Unless, of course, he suffers yet another injury.
 

Craig

World Traveller
Richard said:
I will now be very surprised if Butcher doesn't return for The Third Test.
Unless, of course, he suffers yet another injury.
I think this Test made me question is he really of Test standard despite that 221.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Tom Halsey said:
Believe it or not, his first innings was okay, just the dismissal was a little fiddly outside off.
further proof of how much of the cricket you actually watch. if you had indeed watched that innings you would have seen clearly that key was poking at absolutely everything that collins bowled that went away from him. it came as no surprise when he finally got a knick on one.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Craig said:
I think this Test made me question is he really of Test standard despite that 221.
he might yet be test standard,but it would be unfair for butcher to be left out after not having done too much wrong with the bat.
 

Craig

World Traveller
tooextracool said:
he might yet be test standard,but it would be unfair for butcher to be left out after not having done too much wrong with the bat.
The fact he got out to two soft dismissals has left that question mark with me.
 

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