Stephen Fleming is the worst ever

[Craig]

Well if there is a better variable atletnative (sp) to being captain of New Zealand instead of Fleming I would love to hear it.

 

[Blakey]

Fleming would potentially get in the world 11 based simply and solely on his ability as the best captain of his generation. IF he had the playing depths to back him up then he possibly would have been the best ever captain.

 

[Scallywag]

Flemings captaincy against Australia has been amazing throughout his career. Thats what I will remember him for,

Correct me if I'm wrong but to my knowlege Fleming has never led New Zealand to a test victory against Australia.

Tests
Captain 9 times 4 draws 5 lost

ODI's
Captain 25 times 7 won 17 lost 1 nr

His record against Australia is very ordinary.

I think Fleming is a good captain but NZ allways have a bit extra for Australia no matter who the captain is.

 

[Deja moo]

Fleming would potentially get in the world 11 based simply and solely on his ability as the best captain of his generation.

No , He wouldnt.

 

[Mingster]

Scallywag, watch some cricket of Australia v New Zealand, and go tell me his captaincy was "very ordinary".

 

[Scallywag]

Scallywag, watch some cricket of Australia v New Zealand, and go tell me his captaincy was "very ordinary".

Mingster

If you read my post you will notice I said "His record against Australia is very ordinary."

Now if you look at his record as captain against Australia as shown below:

Tests
Captain 9 times 4 draws 5 lost

ODI's
Captain 25 times 7 won 17 lost 1 nr

That maybe a good record for you but most cricketers would consider that to be VERY ORDINARY.

 

[Mingster]

Read my post again, and I never said he had a good record against Australia. There's really no point in looking at Fleming's record around 6 or 7 years back against the Aussies, because the Fleming today is totally different.

Look at the 2002/3 VB series and the Test series. We competed well, 0-0 in the Test series, and we won the majority of the ODIs we played against Australia.

Statistics can be used to manipulate, watch him, and tell me he as "ordinary" against Australia in the latest outings.

 

[Scallywag]

Read my post again, and I never said he had a good record against Australia. There's really no point in looking at Fleming's record around 6 or 7 years back against the Aussies, because the Fleming today is totally different.

Look at the 2002/3 VB series and the Test series. We competed well, 0-0 in the Test series, and we won the majority of the ODIs we played against Australia.

Statistics can be used to manipulate, watch him, and tell me he as "ordinary" against Australia in the latest outings.

Firstly I responded to this statement.

Flemings captaincy against Australia has been amazing throughout his career. Thats what I will remember him for

Notice it says throught his career not just the last series.
Also note my response to this.

I think Fleming is a good captain but NZ allways have a bit extra for Australia no matter who the captain is.

Notice I said I think Fleming is a good captain but not his record.

Then you say

[QUOTE =Mingster] Scallywag, watch some cricket of Australia v New Zealand, and go tell me his captaincy was "very ordinary". [/QUOTE]

Can you please quote where I stated his captaincy was very ordinary.

 

[Mingster]

Please state where I said Fleming had a great record? I didn't

 

[Scallywag]

You state where I stated you stated Fleming had a good record.

Reread post 18# through to 26# and leave it at that.

 

[Scallywag]

Read my post again, and I never said he had a good record against Australia. There's really no point in looking at Fleming's record around 6 or 7 years back against the Aussies, because the Fleming today is totally different.

Look at the 2002/3 VB series and the Test series. We competed well, 0-0 in the Test series, and we won the majority of the ODIs we played against Australia.

Statistics can be used to manipulate, watch him, and tell me he as "ordinary" against Australia in the latest outings.

Mingster I checked out recent ODI's AUS v NZ and got some interesting results, you have to go back to Jan 26th 02 for NZ's last win against AUS in ODI's and then AUS have won the last six matches, in fact since Ponting took over as captain AUS have convincingly beaten NZ 5 times.

Here are the results of Pontings 5 games as captain in ODI's v NZ.
Australia won by 164 runs
Australia won by 96 runs
Australia won by 8 wickets
Australia won by 2 wickets
Australia won by 44 runs

So recently (last two years) Australia have dominated NZ in ODI's and thats not a stat thats a fact.

 

[_Ed_]

No , He wouldnt.

Why not? I would put him in mine, its not like the World XI would need another batsman in his place.

 

[marc71178]

in fact since Ponting took over as captain AUS have convincingly beaten NZ 5 times.

Convincingly?

The World Cup game was a "convincing" win now was it?

 

[Scallywag]

Statistics can be used to manipulate, watch him, and tell me he as "ordinary" against Australia in the latest outings.

5 wins from 5 games looks very convincing to me marc7118
Or perhaps you think Fleming has performed better than ordinary marc.

 

[marc71178]

Nobody is denying that they've won 5 out of 5, what I said was that they haven't been 5 convincing wins as you put it.

Perhaps if you read what you'd put in the first place, you'd understand why it was being questioned?

 

[BlackCap_Fan]

Let me just broadcast this to the people who don't know.


Australia simply has better players, and since Hadlees retirement, they always have. What Stephen Fleming has done (and still does) with what he has got is fantastic in my opinion.

 

[Scallywag]

Blackcap Fan

NZ have played some very good ODI cricket and in my opinion have some very good players and as a team have developed into a more professional and consistant team.
I think to much credit is given to Fleming who is a good captain but he has as I said a experienced and professional team that should be winning games due to talent and experience. NZ are no longer a minnow and Howarth in the early eighties showed that NZ can win games.

 

[Tom Halsey]

Very good ODI cricket, and very good ODI collapses.

 

[Loony BoB]

Still can't beat Rob Key for me!

From the moment I first saw him after checking his cricinfo page when he helped Kent to victory over NZ this year, I thought Key was the least God-gifted in the looks department in world cricket. Styris comes second.

Fleming does have problems, but at least he admits to them and works on getting rid of them - I guess he still gets the kick every now and then, though.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Blackcap Fan

NZ have played some very good ODI cricket and in my opinion have some very good players and as a team have developed into a more professional and consistant team.
I think to much credit is given to Fleming who is a good captain but he has as I said a experienced and professional team that should be winning games due to talent and experience. NZ are no longer a minnow and Howarth in the early eighties showed that NZ can win games.

The fact is that New Zealand don't have a Hayden at the top or a McGrath with the ball.

Spot for spot:
Fleming v Ponting
32.40 v 42.42

Astle v Hayden
34.31 v 42.07

Marshall v Martyn
46.25 v 41.23

Styris/McMillan v Lehmann
27.62/27.33 v 39.72

McCullum v Gilchrist
20.03 v 35.73

Bowlers:
Vettori v Warne
37.81 v 25.82

Tuffey v McGrath
28.64 v 22.60

Quite simply Australia has a superior team. The superior team may not win every time, but over a long period, the cream rises. To compare Ricky Ponting's captaincy to Fleming's on the basis of head-to-head meetings is ridiculous. Have Fleming captain Australia and then come talk. It's a telling thing that Fleming wouldn't even make the Australian best XI.