Greatest Bowler

[aussie_beater]

Are we talking about the all time greatest fast bowler ? If that's so, then Glenn Mcgrath doesn't even feature in my list.Among the players that I have seen, I don't think I have any space for McGrath although he is very good.I don't know about players who played their cricket before I started watching cricket.Yes, I have seen some videos of Wes Hall and types but I haven't seen much to really rate them.

1) Dennis Lillee - no explanation is needed as to why he is the best fast bowler to ever grace a cricket field.He was simply superb.

2) Malcolm Marshall - boy, he was one hell of a quick on any surface any time and anybody who has seen him bowl or faced him will testify to that.He was simply a terrorist for a batsman:-)

3) Michael Holding - The Rolls Royce of fast bowling was one smooth killer.

4) Waqar Younis - The Sultan of swing on his heyday was simply unplayable.His extra yard of pace gave him the edge over someone like Akram.

5) Curtly Ambrose - No one really managed to play him properly because of his ability to consistently lift the ball from almost a good length spot and get it into the batsman's rib cage.That length was too troublesome for anybody to handle properly.And the odd one would just leave the off stump to flummox the batsman.

6) Allan Donald - He was sheer pleasure to watch.Such smooth action and devastating accuracy.

7) Richard Hadlee - His ability to move the ball in the air as well as to get purchase off the wicket makes him one of the all time greatest.

8) Wasim Akram - By far the best left arm fast bowler ever.His pace and swing makes him one of the icons of fast bowling.

9) Joel Garner - With his height,accuracy and the ability to lift the ball, he was one of the best that I have ever seen.

10) Imran Khan - His ability to move the ball as well as use his extra yard of pace puts him in the category of his proteges Akram and Waqar.

[Edited on 7/14/02 by aussie_beater]

 

[Top_Cat]

aussie_beater: I'll take issue with you on a few of your choices;

4) Waqar Younis - The Sultan of swing on his heyday was simply unplayable.His extra yard of pace gave him the edge over someone like Akram.

As much as I LOVE Waqar (I borrowed some of his technique to perfect my own inswinging yorker ) I was never convinced he could consistently bowl well against the best teams. I got used to seeing him wreck teams like NZ and England but against a team like Australia, he generally struggled (he averages 34.37 in 9 Tests against Australia compared to his career average of around 22). I always thought that the Aussies and India did well against him because hey knew that the devastating in-swinger would come eventually and to be prepared for it so then you could play the rest of what he bowled a little easier.

Having said that, I think Waqar has changed HEAPS. He's slowed down quite a bit in pace but he's bowling VERY well right now and has been doing so for quite a while. The qualities which he displayed as an out-and-out pace bowler only occasionally, we see more often now because he can't rely on that one searing ball to knock over someone who's being stubborn.

So yeah, whilst he wouldn't feature in my top ten, he'd be close and who knows, the way he's bowling right now, in a couple of years I might have to revise my opinion.

6) Allan Donald - He was sheer pleasure to watch.Such smooth action and devastating accuracy.

Another who I would personally rate highly but not as high as you. He had pace and a pretty decent out-swinger but to me, he wasn't what you'd call an 'all-wicket bowler' and tended to lose confidence if things weren't going his way. A shame, because he had the raw materials to be one of the greatest ever but his temperament is what I'd question.

Other than that, the rest of your choices are hard to dispute, especially your top choices in Dennis Lillee and Malcolm Marshall.

 

[scorpio]

I guess seeing mc grath over the years and considering that he still has some years left i guess he might end up being one of the greatest ever..


and btw i am new here ..so hi all

 

[lord_of_darkness]

hey mate ...

yea Waqar is good ,

I remember the times he teamed up with Akram and they bowled like rever swining yorkers and in swinging ones those were real beauty to watch!

 

[cozmiccoyoete]

Cat,
Interesting point about Waqar, i personally think he was one of the best ever.His record against Aus isn't MUCH impressive(his rec against India can't be considered coz all he played was 4 tests) This bring me to mind the so called greatest spinner ever Shane Warne.Whenever i used to point to the fact that his record against the best spin playing nation, i.e India, is Pathetic,so how come he's so highly regarded,the Aus and English fans used to get seriously offended.
Waqar's record against Aus is not impressive but isn't crap either unlike Warne's record against India.Waqar have a st/rt that is among the best ever.Ofcourse he's no longer the bowler he used to be , but once he was a great bowler.

 

[Top_Cat]

Interesting point about Waqar, i personally think he was one of the best ever.His record against Aus isn't MUCH impressive(his rec against India can't be considered coz all he played was 4 tests) This bring me to mind the so called greatest spinner ever Shane Warne.Whenever i used to point to the fact that his record against the best spin playing nation, i.e India, is Pathetic,so how come he's so highly regarded,the Aus and English fans used to get seriously offended.

Well for one, I don't go TOO much on stats when it comes to describing a player. When I say that Waqar is a GREAT bowler but not the GREATEST, I mean in terms of what I've seen of him. And believe me, I'm a HUGE fan of the man. I used to LOVE watching him scare the bejeezus out of batsmen and for sure, he did wreck some teams but in terms of bowling, to me he was never the complete fast bowler. He could swing the ball better than anyone. This is not in dispute. However, the fact he was an opening bowler, yet took most of his wickets as tail-enders or middle-order batsmen counts against him in my opinion. He didn't bowl well enough with the new ball to gain my undivided respect. With the old ball, he was lethal but with the newie, when it came time to get opening batsmen and the like, it wasn't anywhere near as effective.

As I said, though with his pace slackening somewhat, he has proven he CAN dismiss the top-order batsmen more consistently because he can't just blas them out. Ask him and you'll see HE believes he's bowling better than ever and having seen him bowl fast years ago and see how he bowls now, I agree. He's a much better bowler than he ever was. Smarter, in fact.

Glenn McGrath on the other hand dismisses more batsmen in the top 3 than any other bowler in the game right now. THAT'S why he's considered the best of the current crop. I saw the stats once and it was something phenominal that 40% of his wickets at the time were batsmen in the top 3 of the batting order of a given team he plays against. Now that's hard to match.

Personally, I don't think Glenn McGrath is a particularly skillful bowler in terms of bowling unplayable balls all the time. What gets him his wickets is his consistency and the occasional ball which does something outrageous and his LINE and LENGTH. Someone like Waqar will always be trying to bowl that unplayable ball and does so quite often but there are days when the ball isn't swinging and you just need to be consistent and bowl a decent line-and-length. Glenn McGrath is the master at kicking back a gear and doing just that. Dennis Lillee was another who developed that later on. In short, you can't bowl the unplayable ball every time.

As for Warnie, sure he has a crappy record against India but so do most leggies. Warnie averages something like 55 against India. Abdul Qadir, one of the greatest exponents of leg spin ever, in 16 Tests against India averaged 51. Mushtaq Ahmed averaged 40. So in reality NO-ONE does well against them, home or away, yet you're talking about three of the 'best'. That suggests that there are other factors at play; flat pitches (leggies need bounce AND spin to be effective), Indian players (yes they are exceptional players of spin) etc. In fact, the only leggie to do really well against India IN India was Richie Benaud who averaged 18 per wicket in his 8 Tests against India. But they were hardly a powerhouse back then.

So yes, Warnie has a crappy record against India but so does virtually every other leggie.

Waqar's record against Aus is not impressive but isn't crap either unlike Warne's record against India.Waqar have a st/rt that is among the best ever.Ofcourse he's no longer the bowler he used to be , but once he was a great bowler.

As I said, I believe he's a better bowler these days. I mean, how else do you explain his lack of success in Australia, on fast bowler-friendly? Obviously he wasn't quite equipped to use those conditions to his advantage totally because that big hooping inswinger is more useful when it has a chance of keeping low on the pitches in India and Pakistan. Now, he can get wickets in most conditions because he's learnt more about how to move the ball away from the batsmen. Ergo, he's a better bowler.

 

[cozmiccoyoete]

If my memory serves me right Waqar was a good new bowler bowler in the beginning.To give an ex, the series against the brits, all the top order were victims of Waqar, Akram on the other hand used to get the talienders.It was only after he lost his pace did he started relying on the reverse swing, i don't think he's a better bowler now, his yorkers aren't effective anymore, he may claim to be better than before but its not true!

"That suggests that there are other factors at play; flat pitches (leggies need bounce AND spin to be effective)"
Had Warne not played against India in Aus on the bouncy pitches i would have agreed with u, but he was a big failure even on bouncy pitches, there were no other factor, he simply is overrated!

One thing about the current openers, apart from Aus and Eng, none of the cricketing nation have a good opener.Getting the openers scalp in 80's was something, now its more of a piece of cake.Atleast Ind/Pak/WI/NZ/LK, all have lousy openers!

 

[Top_Cat]

If my memory serves me right Waqar was a good new bowler bowler in the beginning.To give an ex, the series against the brits, all the top order were victims of Waqar, Akram on the other hand used to get the talienders.It was only after he lost his pace did he started relying on the reverse swing, i don't think he's a better bowler now, his yorkers aren't effective anymore, he may claim to be better than before but its not true!

Well of course his yorkers aren't anywhere near as effective but maybe he's figured out that in-swinging yorkers won't work every time and you need to try different stuff against the best to succeed?

I mean, when he took two bags of 7 in the mini-series against England and Australia last year, I thought he bowled superbly. And every time I've seen him, he bowling more deliveries in the 'corridor of uncertainty'. In fact, the reason you see less bowled yorkers from him is because he doesn't attempt them quite as often. Sure it DOES take longer to get batsmen ou when bowling with the ball moving away from the bat but in the end, you concede less runs and bowl better, getting better batsmen out, especially when you don't have the speed anymore.

I mean, even though Shoaib Ahktar is bowling absolutely brilliantly now, do you think he'll be the same bowler when his pace is lowered by age and injury like what happened to Waqar? No way. Waqar has had to change the entire way he bowls because of his lessening in pace. That is REALLY difficult to do. So the fact he's still bowling very well is a testiment to the ability he probably always had but didn't really use as effectively as he could.

Had Warne not played against India in Aus on the bouncy pitches i would have agreed with u, but he was a big failure even on bouncy pitches, there were no other factor, he simply is overrated!

Yeah but as I said, spinners need pace AND bounce. On the one spinner's pitch in Aus last time India were hear, Warnie took 5-for.

Besides, Warnie was certainly WAY over-hyped a few years ago but name a better leg-spinner who has such a record where he only has ONE team which dominates him. Mushtaq certainly gets pounded by more than one team, Salisbury, Stuart McGill and all the others hve their weak teams. Warne isn't any different. So as far as leggies go, well he's up there with the best. I'm not denying people were going over the top when saying he was the greatest bowler in the history of the game but he's up there with the best leggies. As I said, name a better one.

EVERY player has at LEAST one team which they don't do so well against. Even Sachin (look at his record against South Africa; 20 runs less per innings than his overall average). So that's nothing new. Is that a basis upon which to say someone is a terrible player? I think not. I mean, I could say that because the Aussies are great players of pace bowling and Waqar has struggled against them, therefore HE'S no good as a bowler but that would be ignoring that he HAS done well against other teams.

One thing about the current openers, apart from Aus and Eng, none of the cricketing nation have a good opener.Getting the openers scalp in 80's was something, now its more of a piece of cake.Atleast Ind/Pak/WI/NZ/LK, all have lousy openers!

Let's see how many Test openers I can come up with off the top of my head who've played in the 90's:

VVS Laxman
Saeed Anwar
A Sohail
Mike Atherton
Graham Gooch
Navjot Sidhu
Andy Flower
Grant Flower
Sanath Jayasuriya
Desmond Haynes

And those are just the ones off the top of my head. So what was that about there only being lousy openers in the 90's?

And if anything you're indirectly insulting Waqar if you say that openers were lousy because if they're lousy, the fact he has less top-order wickets says that even though they suck, he STILL couldn't get them out!

Obviously this is NOT the case and that the openers in the 90's were actually quite good.

[Edited on 7/14/02 by Top_Cat]

 

[cozmiccoyoete]

Warne never took 5 wkt against India, his best was 4 and he averaged 62 + in his home country against Ind.

Gooch/Hynes/Sidhu ??? man they have retired long back, i'm talking about the present time( I had written NOW)

Sohail was a good opener?? Jaysuria?? U gotta be kidding.I didn't knew Laxamn was an opener.Anwar was a good onedayer batter but in test he dissapointed a bit.Only Andy can be considered as a good opener from ur list!
Whether its an insult to Waqar or not, fact is that these days there only Aus and Eng have quality openers.



[Edited on 7/14/02 by cozmiccoyoete]

 

[lord_of_darkness]

A good test opener you might wanna add to that list is Mark Richardson !

has a real good test average for an opener

 

[Kimbo]

As a young leggie this topic is really starting to depress me. Is there no hope...will I be getting pounded my whole life...

ah... i will just have to keep taking good wickets...
i will be the worlds best ever leggie... male or female... wahoo... yay me

 

[luckyeddie]

For me, the greatest fast bowler of my era had to be 'Whispering Death', by the narrowest of short heads from Dennis Lillee.
Ask me again tomorrow and I would probably reverse the two.

Memorial service to Ben Hollioake going on at the moment. RIP, Ben.

 

[aussie_beater]

If you look at the current crop of leg spinners, then Warne is the best irrespective of his record against India.Not even Abdul Qadir has done well against India.I haven't seen McGill's bowling at all and so I don't know about him, but in my estimation Mushtaq Ahmed of Pakistan in mid nineties was a better leggie then Warne.Specially his googly was among the best I have ever seen.It used to turn almost the same amount as his leg breaks and that was phenomenal.

 

[Top_Cat]

Warne never took 5 wkt against India, his best was 4 and he averaged 62 + in his home country against Ind.

I stand corrected. I didn't check that.

Gooch/Hynes/Sidhu ??? man they have retired long back, i'm talking about the present time( I had written NOW)

Okay well you can't really say too much about the current openers because what's the one thing most of them have in common? They've played very few Tests. They're all so new it's hard to say anything about how good they are. Look at the West Indian openers: Gayle and Hinds. Gayle has played 23 Tests and hinds 24. Here's the rest (from Cricinfo):

Imran Nazir: 6 Tests
Shahid Afridi: 14 Tests
Mark Richardson: 20 Tests
Matthew Horne: 33 Tests
SS Das: 23 Tests
W Jaffer: 5 Tests

And that will do. None of those guys is particularly experienced at Test level and have a long way to go before people can really see how good they can be. So to say getting openers out now is easy, well that's a tad harsh. Most teams in world cricket are going through a transition when it comes to openers so I reserve judgement on these guys for a little while yet.

Sohail was a good opener?? Jaysuria?? U gotta be kidding

Sohail was one of the better openers in world cricket to begin with and had the potential to be great but fell by the wayside when Pakistani selectors messed with his career a little too much. But early on, there was no disputing his quality or potential.

And Jayasuriya has been one of the best Test and one-day openers of the 90's He averages 40 and regardless of the pitch, you don't score 340 against any team without being any good, let alone against India in India.

So yeah I'd say both of those guys could play more than just a bit.

I didn't knew Laxamn was an opener

He certainly started off that way and in my opinion, should have stayed there:

http://www-aus.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/1997-98/AUS_IN_IND/AUS_IND_T2_18-22MAR1998.html

http://www-aus.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/1997-98/AUS_IN_IND/AUS_IND_T3_25-29MAR1998.html

http://www-aus.cricket.org/link_to_...N_AUS/SCORECARDS/IND_AUS_T3_02-06JAN2000.html

And they were just three examples I could think of to look for. Before his 280, the 160-odd you see he scored there in the third scorecard was his top score and having watched it, I thought he batted very well. As I said, Laxman should have been groomed as an opener right from the start and persevered with as such.

Anwar was a good onedayer batter but in test he dissapointed a bit

Yeah a Test average of 45 sure would be disappointing. I don't know how he sleeps at night with such sub-standard returns...........when you consider that it's VERY rare for a Test opener to average more than 43 or 44, maybe you'd see that Saeed Anwar is a very impressive Test AND one-day batsman.

Only Andy can be considered as a good opener from ur list!
Whether its an insult to Waqar or not, fact is that these days there only Aus and Eng have quality openers.

Navjot Sidhu averaged 42 in 51 Tests with 9 hundreds. Does this not make him a quality player? Regardess of his stats, all you had to do was watch him to see just how good he was. He was a very attacking player and it was soul-destroying to watch him carve up the Aussie attack in India a few years ago.

And I've already said it's far too early to judge with the current Test openers other than Australia and England.

As a young leggie this topic is really starting to depress me. Is there no hope...will I be getting pounded my whole life...

Better learn to deal with that. Did I tell you I started off as a leggie. I could turn the ball comfortably 2 feet and my wrong-un was pretty good too but then in practice once, my coach said "Hey Corey, we like your leggies but bowl a quick one.". My first ball lept up at the batsman and just missed his face.

So then my coaches insisted I bowl fast instead and that was all she wrote for leggies from me!

If you look at the current crop of leg spinners, then Warne is the best irrespective of his record against India.Not even Abdul Qadir has done well against India.

I concur completely. Warnie may not have done well against India (as we all keep getting reminded) but no-one did and against everyone else, he was the best.

I haven't seen McGill's bowling at all and so I don't know about him, but in my estimation Mushtaq Ahmed of Pakistan in mid nineties was a better leggie then Warne.Specially his googly was among the best I have ever seen.It used to turn almost the same amount as his leg breaks and that was phenomenal.

Yeah but his leggies didn't turn that much........

Mushie was certainly a VERY good leggie but wasn't as consistent as Warne. For pure talent and variation, sure he was superior but he was less accurate. His average against India was something like 70!

I just wanna say one more thing about Waqar: I am a HUGE fan of the man. I have no doubt he is a superb bowler and I personally used to gain a lot from watching him bowl (more so than Glenn McGrath). In fact, not many people know this but my nickname at one club was 'Waqar' because in one season I managed to break the big toes of 10 batsmen with inswingers and I used to get a lot of bowled outs that way. If I had to pick one fast bowler in the 90's who was my idol, I'd have to say yeah it was Waqar.

But apart from recently, I'm still not convinced he could out-bowl someone like Glenn McGrath. Glenn is the quintessential all-wicket bowler. They both have variation (Glenn significantly less, granted), pace, hostility and they both NEVER give up. But one area where Waqar fell down SLIGHTLY was in his ability to bowl well in ALL conditions. That is one area where Glenn just beats Waqar. This along with consistent line-and-length is why I place McGrath only JUST above Waqar.

However, I still love watching Waqar charge in. To me he was aggressiveness personified. Regardless of the situation he would steam in and try his hardest.

Surprisingly enough he was never really one to bowl bouncers and I think that worked against him because when he did bowl them, they were lethal. I still remember one he bowled to Robin Smith a few years ago. Robin Smith was always pretty useless against spin but against pace he was one of the best in the world. Waqar bowled one bouncer which pitched on or around a middle stump line and cut back. It was QUICK, accurate and Robin Smith had to bend his back so far to avoid it, I swear he nearly snapped in half. He looked genuinely in fear of his life, it was that brutal. To me that was what Waqar was about; a guy who would rather get you out that scare you but if he chose to TRY to scare you, you got the shock of your life.

 

[aussie_beater]

Yeah but his leggies didn't turn that much........

Yeah, not like Warne's leggies for sure....but Mushies leggies were good enough to be called "leggies" unlike Kumble's ..and with that amount of turn on the wrong-un, he was simply a cut above the rest.

I would rate Waqar higher then McGrath because he had more variety in his bowling.McGrath is a plain line & length bowler and he consistently tests the batsman around a certain line and length till the batsman makes an error.That's what makes him more successful in all types of wickets.

 

[Top_Cat]

Yeah, not like Warne's leggies for sure....but Mushies leggies were good enough to be called "leggies" unlike Kumble's ..and with that amount of turn on the wrong-un, he was simply a cut above the rest.

His wrong-un was, yes. As I said his consistency was in question, though.

I would rate Waqar higher then McGrath because he had more variety in his bowling.McGrath is a plain line & length bowler and he consistently tests the batsman around a certain line and length till the batsman makes an error.That's what makes him more successful in all types of wickets.

Yep and I would have completely agreed with that around 3 years ago because that was pretty much EXACTLY what I thought of him. When I first saw him bowl I thought, "Geez, he's pretty straight........." but in the last 3 years, he has developed a pretty lethal leg-cutter (whereas early on, his stock ball was the off-cutter) and has shown he can swing the ball a little but not really all that effectively. But yes his line and length is his main strength.

As I've said, though to say that's ALL he does isn't really accurate anymore. A person who merely bowls line-and-length doesn't destroy a batting line-up like McGrath did in England at Lords in 1997 or against the WI in Brisbane in 2001. You actually have to be bowling excellent deliveries to get good batsmen out and Glenn has improved to the extent where he's starting to do that.

 

[scorpio]

My top 9.

1. McGrath - I hate this guy. infact i used to wish some one would crack his skull. but boy what a bowler. each time he was put under pressure he delivered. I really think aussies are the half the team without him. and he is not yet done :undecided:

2. Ambrose - Sheer intimidation. grt record and a thinking mans fast bowler.

3. marshall - if he was taller by another 5 inches he would have been the bradman of bowlers.

4. donald - sheer weight of record. some unplayable balls to sachin, waugh bros and athers.

5. akram - the only reason he is down the list is some times he could be listless and bowl like srinath (short without pace)

6. walsh - sheer longetivity and the fact that he peaked so late in his career makes me wonder what would have been ?

7. murali - stats tell the truth here.

8. warne - revived spin with kumble and mustaq. class act.

9. waqar - sheer brute force when he was at his peak.

I have only listed those i watched and could form a opinion.
cheers

 

[cozmiccoyoete]

Cat,

Lets talk about openers again.I agree that Afridi and Das have played few tests, but if u think that their game will change with time then u got to be kidding.Afridi is crap, he has played 100 onedayers yet doesn't know how to bat, he will never be a good batter.Das too suxs, fact is that getting their wkts is a piece of cake and it will be like that.Jaffer is just in , so can't say much about him, but the guys before him like Ramesh and Co just were pathetic, fact is that ever since Gavaskar , India have been struggling to find a good opener.

Sohail--- U said that he had potential, but his career was screwed up by the Board, whether it was messed up by Board or by himself is BESIDES the point, the important thing is that he never reached top level.An ave of 32, thats says it all.

Laxman--- He was sent in as a MAKE **** opener in few games, whats the point of talking about him as an opener?? He is a middle order batter,case closed!

Siddhu-- I have said before that i'm talking about Guys that are playing cricket NOW, u can talk about how Good Siddhu is as a Commentator though

Jaysuria-- Gets ur facts right, Jaysuria didn't get 340 IN INDIA, he got it in SriLanka, on a pitch(if we can even call it one) where Lanka scored 952-6 in reply to India's 537 -8.Just Two innings were played in that match, S WAUGH described the pitch as a Disgrace and said that Playing on such pitches was like killing cricket.
Now can u judge a batter by just one innings?
Jaysuria have averaged 34 outside his country with just 2 tons, i do consider him as a mediocre batter.

Anwar--- I said that did dissapointed in tests, i stand by it coz his record against Aus and SA is very poor.


Few days back Andy roberts described McGrath as an ordinary bowler! I don't agree with that, he's a really good bowler BUT he never was such a destructive bowler as Waqar was in his prime.Fact is that after Marshall if there was one destructive bowler then it was Waqar.I have yet to see any bowler dominate cric like he did in his prime!

As for Warne, he is not just being tipped as the best leggie but AS a Best spinner ever.I completely disagree with it, SP Gupte, Prasanna and Bedi were far better than Shane!

 

[Top_Cat]

First off, CALM DOWN.

Second:

Lets talk about openers again.I agree that Afridi and Das have played few tests, but if u think that their game will change with time then u got to be kidding.Afridi is crap, he has played 100 onedayers yet doesn't know how to bat, he will never be a good batter.Das too suxs, fact is that getting their wkts is a piece of cake and it will be like that.Jaffer is just in , so can't say much about him, but the guys before him like Ramesh and Co just were pathetic, fact is that ever since Gavaskar , India have been struggling to find a good opener.

Okay well I somewhat agree about Afridi but realistically he shouldn't have been made a Test opener in the first place for his technical deficiencies.

As for Das and Jaffer, as I said it's FAR too early to tell. Give them time and we'll see. Even Steve Waugh started off ordinarily but he was persevered with and look where his career went.

Laxman--- He was sent in as a MAKE **** opener in few games, whats the point of talking about him as an opener?? He is a middle order batter,case closed!

Regardless of whether he was 'intended' to be a makeshift opener (I disagree), as I said he has such a good technique, he should have stayed there, especially since there is currently a dearth of really top-class openers in India. His wicket is tough to get and that makes him opener material in my opinion.

Sohail--- U said that he had potential, but his career was screwed up by the Board, whether it was messed up by Board or by himself is BESIDES the point, the important thing is that he never reached top level.An ave of 32, thats says it all.

I'm not talking about results but ability. Whatever his failings, it had little to do with his ability. Either way, for a while he was as hard to get out as any batsman in the world.

Jaysuria-- Gets ur facts right, Jaysuria didn't get 340 IN INDIA, he got it in SriLanka, on a pitch(if we can even call it one) where Lanka scored 952-6 in reply to India's 537 -8.Just Two innings were played in that match, S WAUGH described the pitch as a Disgrace and said that Playing on such pitches was like killing cricket.
Now can u judge a batter by just one innings?
Jaysuria have averaged 34 outside his country with just 2 tons, i do consider him as a mediocre batter.

Well we just differ. I saw him get a Test ton in Adelaide in person and the last thing I would have described him as was ordinary.

Few days back Andy roberts described McGrath as an ordinary bowler! I don't agree with that, he's a really good bowler BUT he never was such a destructive bowler as Waqar was in his prime.Fact is that after Marshall if there was one destructive bowler then it was Waqar.I have yet to see any bowler dominate cric like he did in his prime!

No Glenn McGrath certainly is NOT 'destructive' bowler but don't mix up destructive with 'better'. Waqar was and IS an awesome bowler but I stand by my remark that for all-wicket ability, I'd get behind Glenn McGrath. Bowling isn't about 'how' but 'how many'. The wickets are all that matter, not how you get them or how many batsmen you bowl to do so.

As for Warne, he is not just being tipped as the best leggie but AS a Best spinner ever.I completely disagree with it, SP Gupte, Prasanna and Bedi were far better than Shane!

Well I don't know Gupte but the other two were both finger spinners. You can't compare as far as who the 'better' bowler is but if you compared records ONLY, Warne's stacks up pretty well against them so I'd disagree that they were better bowlers.

The hype is ridiculous for sure but If not the best, Warne is in the top 5 of all spinners. You disagree, that's fine. It's just opinion.

 

[luckyeddie]

Bishen Bedi was once timed for an over.
57 seconds from start to finish.

He's also the subject of one of my favourite 'Jonners-isms'. Once spotted a batsman coming down the track, fired it in down the leg side. Engineer (I think?) missed the stumping, the batsmen ran a couple of sundries.

'Bedi byes', said Jonners.