What made the mid-1980s Indian ODI team so good?

[h_hurricane]

I think it can be safely said that the likes of Viv and Kapil were better than what their raw stats suggested. People who saw them play easily recognized it as they could relate to the circumstances they played or the impact they had.

I find it highly weird though that people say Kapil does not belong to company of Imran, Hadlee and Botham(and Viv does not belong to the same tier as Sobers, Lara and Tendulkar). Sure, you could put them 4th among that list for some criteria, but they certainly belong to that list.

 

[srbhkshk]

I could remember one example here. Not pulling down Sachin here, he was amazing, and he could play other flavors of innings that Viv couldn't. And yeah, greatness comes in different colors.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...ndia-4th-test-india-tour-of-australia-2003-04 (he didn't unleash in the second innings, remember watching it, left several harmless deliveries outside off when there was a target to be put up.) Felt a bit disappointed as there was a historical achievement so near.

Frankly, this looks like a pretty fine innings in the context.

 

[mr_mister]

i guess i just want to shake up the status quo here

i feel bowlers feared Viv because of the threat that he might pull out another 1976 series at any time during the 80s, but he never really did again. Good knocks here and there of course. Just always carried that threat with him that he could go full destruction mode again for a whole series like Lara, Kohli and Smith have done 4-5 times, but it was basically an empty threat!

 

[vcs]

Think someone posted a low-scoring series against Pakistan in the '80s where Viv dominated with the bat against a brilliant attack and was the difference between a win and a loss.

The "intangibles" definitely count for a lot when the bloke could come in and score 80 at a SR of 150 in a Test match, which no one else could dream of doing at the time! It's why most people would consider Gilchrist a better bat than Andy Flower. There are too many stories of Viv taking on and demolishing the best opposition bowlers for it to be some sort of myth.

 

[harsh.ag]

i guess i just want to shake up the status quo here

i feel bowlers feared Viv because of the threat that he might pull out another 1976 series at any time during the 80s, but he never really did again. Good knocks here and there of course. Just always carried that threat with him that he could go full destruction mode again for a whole series like Lara, Kohli and Smith have done 4-5 times, but it was basically an empty threat!

Completely ignoring World Series cricket is not going to do any good though

 

[vcs]

Maybe a "significant upgrade on Pietersen" would be a good way to think of Viv.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Frankly, this looks like a pretty fine innings in the context.

He's talking about the actual batting, not purely the score

declaring with Dravid on 91 is interesting too

 

[h_hurricane]

Frankly, this looks like a pretty fine innings in the context.

The first innings certainly was, 2nd innings not so. It wasn't a poor innings by any means. But here was an example of a great player who narrowly missed leaving his imprints on a historical away series victory, not because he was not capable of playing a more aggressive innings. Not saying India definitely would have won it, and Ganguly's slightly delayed declaration played its part too.

 

[mr_mister]

Viv cracked 400 runs in a series only 4 times in his whole career. 3 of those series were within 12 months from the '75/76 Australia tour to the '76 English tour. One more in '88/89.


Michael Atherton managed this feat 5 times.

 

[harsh.ag]

The first innings certainly was, 2nd innings not so. It wasn't a poor innings by any means. But here was an example of a great player who narrowly missed leaving his imprints on a historical away series victory, not because he was not capable of playing a more aggressive innings. Not saying India definitely would have won it, and Ganguly's slightly delayed declaration played its part too.

India should have imposed the follow on. That was their big mistake.

 

[Teja.]

I was looking forward to discuss Madan Lal and Sandhu in this thread not the 555th thread about whether or not Viv was overrated tbh.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Viv cracked 400 runs in a series only 4 times in his whole career. 3 of those series were within 12 months from the '75/76 Australia tour to the '76 English tour. One more in '88/89.


Michael Atherton managed this feat 5 times.

cool but random tailored stats don't really prove anything

 

[h_hurricane]

India should have imposed the follow on. That was their big mistake.

Yeah, absolutely. Another weird thing which Laxman's 281 did is, captains were scared to impose follow ons even when it absolutely made sense.

 

[GoodAreasShane]

coughadelaide2017cough

 

[mr_mister]

cool but random tailored stats don't really prove anything

It proves a bit right? Atherton is the 'crappiest' player I could find who manages to pass this mark, albeit it narrowly. Smith has probably done it 10 times. Lara probably 15. Even Sachin playing most of his series as little 3 match ones easily gets passed this number


I guess my point is you'd think Viv should have had a bigger impact on more series than he did. I know 400 is an arbitrary number but for a guy who played plenty of 5/6 match series you'd have expected more from him

Most of Smith's acclaim comes from having multiple series where he scores mountains of runs and looks unmoveable right. The alternative is Dean Jones or someone

 

[pardus]

i guess i just want to shake up the status quo here

i feel bowlers feared Viv because of the threat that he might pull out another 1976 series at any time during the 80s, but he never really did again. Good knocks here and there of course. Just always carried that threat with him that he could go full destruction mode again for a whole series like Lara, Kohli and Smith have done 4-5 times, but it was basically an empty threat!

I don't think that's entirely true. Viv actually had a phenomenal series in Aus in 1978-79, and in Pak in 1980-81.
He had several other series successes as well (in Aus 1988-89, in India 1987-88).
Because he was part of such a phenomenal team, which almost always won, his individual contributions did not
stand out as vividly as Lara's did.

I remember watching a Test match in India. West Indies needed to score some 270 odd runs in the fourth innings
on a turning track to win the match. Viv blasted 110* or something like that and took his team to victory easily.

I tell you if India had gotten Viv cheaply that day, West Indies would have surely lost the match (and losy the Test
series as well). Since West Indies won in a canter, nobody recalls the innings as being particularly great.
Same thing with Viv's innings of 83 in World Cup 1983 SF against Pak. If Pak had gotten Viv cheaply, it was very
likely the match would have gone to the wire (and chasing in a World Cup Semi, I would have put my money on Pak).

Honestly, on several occasions Viv made difficult things look ridiculously easy.

 

[h_hurricane]

Viv cracked 400 runs in a series only 4 times in his whole career. 3 of those series were within 12 months from the '75/76 Australia tour to the '76 English tour. One more in '88/89.


Michael Atherton managed this feat 5 times.

Part of the reason Viv couldn't crack 400 in a series(and a good part) is that his own pace attack wouldn't let the opposition score enough runs that he needed to score by his own bat.

 

[mr_mister]

Part of the reason Viv couldn't crack 400 in a series(and a good part) is that his own pace attack wouldn't let the opposition score enough runs that he needed to score by his own bat.

oh come on, he had plenty of chances in the first dig of matches i'm sure. and its not like every time west indies batted first in a match they enforced the follow on, even if they did end up winning the match easily i'm sure he had plenty of series where he got to bat 8-9 times

maybe if he had a crappier team he would have been forced to bat differently and do what Smith has just done in the recent ashes, but i think he knew he didn't have to use that 5th gear very often(over a whole series) because his bowlers made sure there was little threat on the table. This means though that he had unfulfilled potential, and a reputation based on intangibles rather than results

 

[harsh.ag]

Is there a good reason you keep neglecting WSC?

 

[mr_mister]

Is there a good reason you keep neglecting WSC?

I guess because they aren't real tests. What are his stats in those?