What made the mid-1980s Indian ODI team so good?

[Daemon]

so which of his stats aren't "ATG level"?

Strike rate 29.5? Economy of 4? nearly 2 wickets per match?

edit: and to reiterate, obviously not claiming that Len Pascoe was an ATG, that is patently ridiculous. That's also the point.

balls bowled are also part of stats

 

[TheJediBrah]

your face is stats

 

[morgieb]

Probably about average, but taken together with the average, SR & wpm it's pretty hard to deny that those are ATG stats, albeit over a small sample

Is it even that small a sample for the 80s anyway?

Len Pascoe was a 70's player, not an 80's one.

I think 70's ODI's can be described as being "a bit mickey mouse/not a big deal", especially pre-WSC. Don't think it's fair to describe the 80's at least.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Len Pascoe was a 70's player, not an 80's one.

I think 70's ODI's can be described as being "a bit mickey mouse/not a big deal", especially pre-WSC. Don't think it's fair to describe the 80's at least.

Even more so then, 29 games was probably a decent length ODI career in the 70s.

Not sure why we brought up Pascoe in the first place though in that case

 

[mr_mister]

Wait I thought we were using Len Pascoe's stats to prove that people didn't take ODI cricket seriously in the '80s, not that we were trying to claim that Len Pascoe was an ATG

haha yeah that was my original point more or less, but ankitj's reaction to my post made me realise my point regarding indian fans and longevity - he just saw red as soon as he saw the name of a man with a short career(Pascoe) and the word ATG in the same post

 

[honestbharani]

haha yeah that was my original point more or less, but ankitj's reaction to my post made me realise my point regarding indian fans and longevity - he just saw red as soon as he saw the name of a man with a short career(Pascoe) and the word ATG in the same post

More BS posting...

 

[mr_mister]

and fwiw indian fans i'm not saying aussies are any better, we probably go too far the other way with quality > quantity

we talk up Bradman and Smith's averages like they are the one true 'best' stat/measure of a batsman and probably undervalue total runs and wickets a bit

it's something that lets us bring down Jimmy Anderson and Stuart Broad down a few pegs though

 

[harsh.ag]

haha yeah that was my original point more or less, but ankitj's reaction to my post made me realise my point regarding indian fans and longevity - he just saw red as soon as he saw the name of a man with a short career(Pascoe) and the word ATG in the same post

Goes on a rant about Indian fans because an Indian poster said a non ATG bowler is a non ATG bowler

Accuses said Indian poster of seeing red

 

[mr_mister]

Goes on a rant about Indian fans because an Indian poster said a non ATG bowler is a non ATG bowler

Accuses said Indian poster of seeing red

my point was Pascoe isn't ATG but on stats alone he could seem like one etc more criticisng ODI stats rather than elevating Len Pascoe and so to me someone completely missing that is an indication they're not thinking clearly coz theyre so triggered/seeing red - and then naturally i deduced the reasons and my theory is indian fans really value the longevity factor of cricketer's careers, it is what it is

 

[honestbharani]

my point was Pascoe isn't ATG but on stats alone he could seem like one etc more criticisng ODI stats rather than elevating Len Pascoe and so to me someone completely missing that is an indication they're not thinking clearly coz theyre so triggered/seeing red - and then naturally i deduced the reasons and my theory is indian fans really value the longevity factor of cricketer's careers, it is what it is

And what it is, is BS posting... And nothing else.

 

[mr_mister]

And what it is, is BS posting... And nothing else.

haha yeah maybe. you have to admit it would explain why Kapil Dev is talked about in the same breath as Botham, Imran and Hadlee though. Coz just going by his averages he's only like Paul Reiffel tier as an All-rounder - but then you look at his centuries and his total wickets and he becomes a God

 

[h_hurricane]

i've noticed Indian fans push the longevity argument more than most, maybe coz some of their best players rely on the quantity over > quality argument to be elevated to the next tier

Kapil had meh averages but held the wicket taking record so that allows him to be in that big four 4 allrounder discussion

Sachin with the century and run record etc allows him to be placed above Ponting and Lara


Lenny Pascoe's short career looks pretty damn ATG on paper to me

Nobody calls Kapil an ATG bowler though. He is an ATG allrounder with or without his longevity. If you are speaking about tests, a bowling average of 29 and batting average of 31 is ATG level. Same goes for Botham as well. Unless you ignore their batting.. Longevity is just an icing on the cake.

Kapil never had to retire with his world record to be rated ATG. People who saw him play rated him ATG while he was an active player.

 

[TheJediBrah]

haha yeah maybe. you have to admit it would explain why Kapil Dev is talked about in the same breath as Botham, Imran and Hadlee though. Coz just going by his averages he's only like Paul Reiffel tier as an All-rounder - but then you look at his centuries and his total wickets and he becomes a God

can we get stephen in here to comment on Paul Reiffel > Kapil Dev

 

[mr_mister]

Nobody calls Kapil an ATG bowler though. He is an ATG allrounder with or without his longevity. If you are speaking about tests, a bowling average of 29 and batting average of 31 is ATG level. Same goes for Botham as well. Unless you ignore their batting.. Longevity is just an icing on the cake.

Kapil never had to retire with his world record to be rated ATG. People who saw him play rated him ATG while he was an active player.

Botham at least had the 5 point difference, and halfway though his career it was more like 12-15 points - we all know Botham stayed on too long

But yeah did Kapil ever have a point where he had a massive difference between batting and bowling average? 32-26 or something like that before falling away at the end? or did he always hover around 31/29

coz really Shane Watson with his batting average of 35 and bowling average of 33 looks just as useful to a team lineup on paper - but he's considered a test failure

so i guess it's just interesting to me how a long career can smooth over unimpressive averages, mainly when it comes to all-rounders

 

[Arachnodouche]

Everyone I've heard talk of Kapil agrees he was one of the most naturally gifted athletes of his time. Indian seam stocks being what they were, he was inevitably bowled into the dust, but I'm certain he would've averaged 25 if he played for say England. He and Hadlee probably had the perfect actions for outswing.

 

[GoodAreasShane]

I've always thought of longevity as a little bit overrated as a way to measure players achievements

Take Devon Smith for example. Been around about 17odd years yet under absolutely no standards whatsoever could he be considered anything other than a failure at international level. Extreme example I know, but I don't consider being able to stick around at the top level is a noteworthy achievement in of itself

 

[Daemon]

I mean we literally have hb in another thread saying 8 tests is enough to judge whether Warne's flipper was effective against Indians so I'm not sure where this Indians love longevity thing is coming from tbh.

I thought we were past nationalistic lines of posting, with the exception of Stephen/HB and semi trolls like TJB.

 

[mr_mister]

I've always thought of longevity as a little bit overrated as a way to measure players achievements

Take Devon Smith for example. Been around about 17odd years yet under absolutely no standards whatsoever could he be considered anything other than a failure at international level. Extreme example I know, but I don't consider being able to stick around at the top level is a noteworthy achievement in of itself

haha i think the idea is you have to stay in the side and rack up a lot of tests

 

[mr_mister]

I mean we literally have hb in another thread saying 8 tests is enough to judge whether Warne's flipper was effective against Indians so I'm not sure where this Indians love longevity thing is coming from tbh.

I thought we were past nationalistic lines of posting, with the exception of Stephen/HB and semi trolls like TJB.

yeah look i feel it's something i've hardly ever done in my time posting here, (bring up nationality) but i just had the thought today and felt like sharing it. Because Kapil and Sachin seem like the two biggest examples of players who's longevity is used as a huge point of praise/rating them. With Sachin it's more the thing that makes people put him above the 7-8 super highly rated batsmen with a similar average to him

it was a bit snide using ankitj's post as a launching pad and if you're reading this mate no hard feelings

 

[TheJediBrah]

I've always thought of longevity as a little bit overrated as a way to measure players achievements

Take Devon Smith for example. Been around about 17odd years yet under absolutely no standards whatsoever could he be considered anything other than a failure at international level. Extreme example I know, but I don't consider being able to stick around at the top level is a noteworthy achievement in of itself

Devon Smith didn't stick around at the top level though. He spent more time dropped than in the team.