What happened to the flipper?

[Starfighter]

Recently I started cultivating off spin in the nets (tbh I think I chucked them) and in addition to a lovely topspun release that got big bounce off the matting I tried the undercutter (called it the 'subcontinental special'). It didn't skid all that much on the matting (much better to bowl pure sidespin for that) but I did beat a few guys with it.

It's surprisingly hard to bowl when you have geared your action for topspin, explains why you don't see someone like Lyon bowl like that.

Both Ashwin and Jadeja have spoken about how they try to ball on certain side of the seam, or give it a bit of an undercut, when delivering so as to try and get it to spin lesser sometimes. They may not know the exact degree to which some balls will turn and some won't etc., but the finger spinners who can beat both edges usually have a pretty decent idea of what they are trying to bowl. Its not like they dunno which one will turn and which one won't literally. Just that they can't be sure of the level of the turn or lack of it.

The ones where you cut under the ball won't spin as much simply due to the forces involved (the real spinning-top like ones don't have much sideways pull) but the ones that really skid you can only really increase the chance. You still won't know, which is what I was saying.

One other one is that forcing the ball through low and quick often makes the ball skid, often by bowling a bit roundarm and bowling pure sidespin, or even spinning slightly backwards. Shakib does this and Derek Underwood beat countless batsmen back in the sixties that way too.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Both Ashwin and Jadeja have spoken about how they try to ball on certain side of the seam, or give it a bit of an undercut, when delivering so as to try and get it to spin lesser sometimes. They may not know the exact degree to which some balls will turn and some won't etc., but the finger spinners who can beat both edges usually have a pretty decent idea of what they are trying to bowl. Its not like they dunno which one will turn and which one won't literally. Just that they can't be sure of the level of the turn or lack of it.

I think it actually is like that a lot of the time. even if they do try to increase the chances of natural variation occurring by how they hold/release the ball. Unless you're bowling a genuine arm ball most of the time it goes straight you actually just bowling a standard off-break.

Best example from Australia I can come up with of this was Steve O'Keefe.

 

[Prince EWS]

Recently I started cultivating off spin in the nets (tbh I think I chucked them) and in addition to a lovely topspun release that got big bounce off the matting I tried the undercutter (called it the 'subcontinental special'). It didn't skid all that much on the matting (much better to bowl pure sidespin for that) but I did beat a few guys with it.

As someone who bowls with quite a bit of topspin I didn't find it that hard to bowl; I just found it difficult to disguise. It's obviously different from a batsman's perspective if you're starting with an over-the-top type action.

If I wanted to bowl it to a batsman I'd bowl him a bunch of half-half deliveries as well in an attempt to confuse him, which often ended up long hops sent to deep wicket. I had a coach who made me choose between that and my leg break and I chose the leg break. I should've chosen neither.

 

[Migara]

Maybe, but most of his wickets from straight balls that I saw were just finger spinners that didn't turn, ie. natural variation off the pitch. Same thing that makes jadeja so dangerous on turning wickets.

Herath doesn't turn it as Jadeja, and if you get to the pitch, there is not enough difference in lateral deviation to beat the bat. Herath beats batsmen in the air, big time. Jadeja can do both.

 

[Migara]

In his first period in Test career Herath bowled a mean carrom ball. The only left-armer I've ever seen bowl one internationally, and I think actually the first bowler fullstop unless we count old Iverson clips. When he made his comeback post-Murali he'd lost the delivery -- presumably just because he didn't think it was worth it. What was more surprising to me was that he didn't even bring it out for the World T20 he played in.

Cleaned up Dhoni IIRC

 

[Migara]

Both Ashwin and Jadeja have spoken about how they try to ball on certain side of the seam, or give it a bit of an undercut, when delivering so as to try and get it to spin lesser sometimes. They may not know the exact degree to which some balls will turn and some won't etc., but the finger spinners who can beat both edges usually have a pretty decent idea of what they are trying to bowl. Its not like they dunno which one will turn and which one won't literally. Just that they can't be sure of the level of the turn or lack of it.

Not necessarily. If you grip it across the seam instead of along it, the chance of hitting the seam, rough side or shiny side is random.

 

[honestbharani]

They only hold it that way when they dont want to hit the seam. That is the point. If it is the non seam portion of the ball that hits the pitch, there is a lot of variation that can happen, as Starfighter pointed out. I guess I should have said "they grip it such that sometimes it does not even hit the seam" instead.

 

[Migara]

Warne against Ranatunga, WC final '96. First ball to Arjuna is a flipper. Cool and collectively flicks for a single. Then comes another, gets on the front foot and tries to play. See the stark difference in the way flipper is played by a batsman who picks it.

 

[stephen]

Geez that was plumb at 1.06 would have been given in the modern game.

 

[honestbharani]

Lol @ plumb.. stuck outside the line and mostly missing off. Even Benaud did not bat an eyelid.

 

[stephen]

Lol @ plumb.. stuck outside the line and mostly missing off. Even Benaud did not bat an eyelid.

Watch it again. Hit in front of off and was coming back. Easily out in the modern game. DRS has changed those decisions dramatically.

 

[honestbharani]

Nah.. his foot is outside offstump and he is well forward, and the ball is not gonna turn back in, its a flipper, FFS. DRS has not started giving balls that hit the batsman outside off while he is playing a shot and carrying on to miss the stumps out LBW.

 

[Starfighter]

Warne against Ranatunga, WC final '96. First ball to Arjuna is a flipper. Cool and collectively flicks for a single. Then comes another, gets on the front foot and tries to play. See the stark difference in the way flipper is played by a batsman who picks it.

Played the first one purely on length. Hardly an achievement. Was completely beaten by the second one, again attempting to play it on length. Looked like some batsmen I've seen in the BBL facing Rashid Khan for the first time.

You're gonna have to pull up a more convincing example than that.

Lol @ plumb.. stuck outside the line and mostly missing off. Even Benaud did not bat an eyelid.

Benaud not batting an eyelid means nothing. In his era lbws weren't given on the front foot as a matter of course. If you've watched enough old cricket you will find many, many examples of near-plumb lbws that were barely appealed for, if at all.

 

[vcs]

Was probably hitting just outside the line. But yea, DRS has made those kind of calls a bit more interesting for the fielding team.

 

[Starfighter]

Nah.. his foot is outside offstump and he is well forward, and the ball is not gonna turn back in, its a flipper, FFS. DRS has not started giving balls that hit the batsman outside off while he is playing a shot and carrying on to miss the stumps out LBW.

He turns his leg inwards playing the shot - you can see middle stump get covered over from right to left - hits in line with off. Only question was if it needed to straighten against the angle.

 

[honestbharani]

U can see the offstump at the base of his left leg, near his shoe, he played it outside the line, irrespective of what you think and the flipper is not gonna turn back in like a legbreak.

 

[mr_mister]

Geez that was plumb at 1.06 would have been given in the modern game.

Possible asterisk next to SL's '96 victory you reckon?

Miagra to comment

 

[Starfighter]

U can see the offstump at the base of his left leg, near his shoe, he played it outside the line, irrespective of what you think and the flipper is not gonna turn back in like a legbreak.

Way to ignore what I said. He turns his leg inwards, you can see his foot roll over.

 

[honestbharani]

Not at point of impact.. You can still the off peg between his pads.. And that means stuck outside the line.

 

[stephen]

Not at point of impact.. You can still the off peg between his pads.. And that means stuck outside the line.

You really do need to check those eyes. Hits him in front of off. These days that's out any day of the week.