What happened to the flipper?

[stephen]

Hb, you're ignoring the entire point I was making. Which is that even if you count every single test Warne played while he had a flipper, he only played 16 tests against Asian sides and 51 against non Asian sides. Half of the tests he played against Asian sides in that era were from 92 before he was a good wicket taker or in 98 after his shoulder was crocked.

So that leaves around 8 tests in total he played against Asian sides while he had a good flipper. Which explains why TJB doesn't remember him taking many wickets against Asian batsmen with the flipper (Which he really only bowled for a 5 year period).

Excuses imply defense, but I'm not defending anything. I'm looking at facts. It's you who isn't engaging with the discussion properly.

 

[ankitj]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, there needs to be a CW equivalent to Godwin's Law where anyone comparing anyone else to ikki has instantly lost the argument and should shut up before they embarrass themselves even futher

That's very unkind to Ikki. And frankly, quite random.

 

[Arachnodouche]

I imagine Warne's figures would look mighty impressive if he played today, with the amount of Aus-Ind games and the manner in which Indian batting line-ups of the last ten years have periodically unraveled against spin.

 

[stephen]

I imagine Warne's figures would look mighty impressive if he played today, with the amount of Aus-Ind games and the manner in which Indian batting line-ups of the last ten years have periodically unraveled against spin.

India have always played finger spin worse than wrist spin and Warne is a confidence player, so Australia might still be better off with Lyon. Though now Tendulkar is gone I imagine Warne's figures would certainly improve.

 

[the big bambino]

stephen coming up with excuses for Warne is almost as good as ikki doing the same.

I think Stephen's point is fair. It may well be that India played him better, as his overall averages show, but its also true India didn't play him much when his flipper was good so weren't really tested by it.

 

[stephen]

Warne's home figures post 2000 are actually not that great. He averaged 30 in Australia which is not that far ahead of Lyon tbh. Indian pitches don't suit him either - when was the last time a slow wrist spinner prospered in India? The spinners who do well in India are ones that bowl flatter and more into the pitch.

 

[GoodAreasShane]

That's very unkind to Ikki. And frankly, quite random.

Surely you can't actually be serious there champ

 

[smash84]

That's very unkind to Ikki. And frankly, quite random.

I agree, the forum in general has been very ****y about Ikki since he's left.

It was one thing to argue with him when he was here (yes, he did make arguments which were usually against the general leanings of the forum here) but ****ing on him when he isn't around and trying to drag him into everything is just poor form.

 

[GoodAreasShane]

I agree, the forum in general has been very ****y about Ikki since he's left.

It was one thing to argue with him when he was here (yes, he did make arguments which were usually against the general leanings of the forum here) but ****ing on him when he isn't around and trying to drag him into everything is just poor form.

My point is that people shouldn't be dredging him back up, you seem to have taken me to mean the opposite and that isn't accurate in the slightest

 

[smash84]

My point is that people shouldn't be dredging him back up, you seem to have taken me to mean the opposite and that isn't accurate in the slightest

My apologies then if I didn't get your original point.

I agree with your point then, he shouldn't really be dragged into any conversations here.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Hb, you're ignoring the entire point I was making. Which is that even if you count every single test Warne played while he had a flipper, he only played 16 tests against Asian sides and 51 against non Asian sides. Half of the tests he played against Asian sides in that era were from 92 before he was a good wicket taker or in 98 after his shoulder was crocked.

So that leaves around 8 tests in total he played against Asian sides while he had a good flipper. Which explains why TJB doesn't remember him taking many wickets against Asian batsmen with the flipper (Which he really only bowled for a 5 year period).

Excuses imply defense, but I'm not defending anything. I'm looking at facts. It's you who isn't engaging with the discussion properly.

Side note, when I say "remember" I'm generally talking about highlights I've seen after the fact. Unfortunately I never saw any cricket from before Warne's shoulder injury, at least not that I can recall.

And yes I think hb did kind of miss the point and jumped straight to assuming that everyone's posting is as driven by nationalistic fervor as his own. However I'm not convinced that the only reason Asian batsmen didn't get out to the flipper as much are because Warne didn't play them as often, it would make sense that they were also better at reading and reacting to it.

 

[honestbharani]

Hb, you're ignoring the entire point I was making. Which is that even if you count every single test Warne played while he had a flipper, he only played 16 tests against Asian sides and 51 against non Asian sides. Half of the tests he played against Asian sides in that era were from 92 before he was a good wicket taker or in 98 after his shoulder was crocked.

So that leaves around 8 tests in total he played against Asian sides while he had a good flipper. Which explains why TJB doesn't remember him taking many wickets against Asian batsmen with the flipper (Which he really only bowled for a 5 year period).

Excuses imply defense, but I'm not defending anything. I'm looking at facts. It's you who isn't engaging with the discussion properly.

8 Tests is enough of a sample size to see how a team or couple of teams can play a certain variation mate. And once again, you are forgetting that the flipper can be used in ODIs too, not just tests. Like I said, you can infer what you want to suit your agenda, but the reality is that India were good enough players of spin that his variations did not matter. Maybe you can refer to what the other "top 10 spinner" from Australia had to say on the matter too..

 

[vcs]

Azharuddin was really good again legspin, he was good at picking short balls in a flash and smacking them over midwicket.

 

[the big bambino]

8 Tests is enough of a sample size to see how a team or couple of teams can play a certain variation mate. And once again, you are forgetting that the flipper can be used in ODIs too, not just tests. Like I said, you can infer what you want to suit your agenda, but the reality is that India were good enough players of spin that his variations did not matter. Maybe you can refer to what the other "top 10 spinner" from Australia had to say on the matter too..

Well maybe 8 games are a good enough sample size but the point remains he was green or gone irrespective. Also he only played a few odis v India pre 98. India toweled him for sure, in all forms, but flipper wise he didn't have that against them. I think a concession can be made to Warne but would not have changed the dominance India achieved over him.

 

[vcs]

Was Warne struggling with injury throughout their '98 tour? He played a ton of ODIs after the Test series, you'd think they'd have rested him if it was that serious.

 

[honestbharani]

Well maybe 8 games are a good enough sample size but the point remains he was green or gone irrespective. Also he only played a few odis v India pre 98. India toweled him for sure, in all forms, but flipper wise he didn't have that against them. I think a concession can be made to Warne but would not have changed the dominance India achieved over him.

Fair enough, but the whole list of injuries etc brought up by stephen seemed more intent on coming up with excuses for said dominance than anything else. And I think India Australia played a number of ODI series between 1992 and 1997 (sharjah, NZ centenary, Singer Cup etc.) but yeah actual number of games maybe lesser.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Fair enough, but the whole list of injuries etc brought up by stephen seemed more intent on coming up with excuses for said dominance than anything else. And I think India Australia played a number of ODI series between 1992 and 1997 (sharjah, NZ centenary, Singer Cup etc.) but yeah actual number of games maybe lesser.

not having a crack here, but do you think maybe the fact that you jumped straight to that conclusion and then went on the attack is more indicative of your own mindset than anyone else? You've been on more of a hair trigger than usual lately and really seems like you're seeing everything through the filter of "Aus v India". You probably don't even realise you're doing it.

ftr I don't blame you for assuming that was stephen's purpose but your reaction still tells a story

 

[morgieb]

Was Warne struggling with injury throughout their '98 tour? He played a ton of ODIs after the Test series, you'd think they'd have rested him if it was that serious.

Not 100% certain, but he did have shoulder surgery straight after it and missed the next seven Tests. So possibly, though I think it's also probable that India just played him very well (as they did against most good spinners) and Australia also were missing their first choice seam attack which put even more pressure on Warne.

 

[honestbharani]

not having a crack here, but do you think maybe the fact that you jumped straight to that conclusion and then went on the attack is more indicative of your own mindset than anyone else? You've been on more of a hair trigger than usual lately and really seems like you're seeing everything through the filter of "Aus v India". You probably don't even realise you're doing it.

ftr I don't blame you for assuming that was stephen's purpose but your reaction still tells a story

Lol @ attack and jumping to conclusions when all I said, which was completely accurate btw, was that his posting of those excuses reminded me of how ikki used to post on the same topic. That is literally all I posted which was then "attacked" as you so colorfully put it.

 

[honestbharani]

Not 100% certain, but he did have shoulder surgery straight after it and missed the next seven Tests. So possibly, though I think it's also probable that India just played him very well (as they did against most good spinners) and Australia also were missing their first choice seam attack which put even more pressure on Warne.

It is probably true that the Aussie team as a whole would have gotten into better positions that series had McGrath not been injured but they were also some of the flattest tracks you could have seen in India around that time. They were not turners as they could have been, just flat decks that went a bit up and down around the 4th and 5th day out of natural wear and tear. I think the Aussie batting, especially in first innings, let them down more than the bowlers in that series, tbh.