What happened to the flipper?

[Migara]

Did Kumble bowl the flipper?

Yes he did, and was called the "rocket ball" by the Saffers, because he nailed few of them with it in SAF.

 

[Migara]

It is an extremely hard delivery to bowl and get right. From my own experience in trying to bowl it, it uses a lot of strength from the shoulder to push it through as well (which is why Warne couldn't really bowl it after his shoulder injury).

A few bowlers bowled it. Richie Benaud and Abdul Qadir come to mind among the exponents of the flipper. I think Mushtaq Ahmed would bowl it occassionally (although not very successfully).

Cleaned up Navjot Sidhu in the WC with a flipper. No mean feat, even Warne struggled to do it.

Around 3:30

 

[Shady Slim]

Warne kept trying the flipper long after it deserted him and would invariably drag it halfway down the pitch, Finally gave up round about the turn of the millennium I think.

don't forget that warnie's flipper, and as a whole warnie's variations, were always more lethal because every summer he'd claim to have a new "mystery ball" to set the batsmen on edge and the local media would buy in to it always. absolute master of being inside the batsman's head, which is a leggie's best weapon to have on hand.

 

[Migara]

Interestingly I once saw one of Benaud's leg spin teaching videos and he said that he found the slider (didn't call it that, but described it) more useful than the flipper.


The flipper is specifically backspun. Can't recall Kumble bowling such a ball though he may have bowled ones that behaved not too dissimilarly due to his normal pace, trajectory and release.

I do agree with Benaud. Once you are against batsmen who pick the ball out of hand, flipper is a huge give away. Asian batsmen just camped on the backfoot, just flicked, slapped or lofted it back over Warne's head once they started picking it. Warne's success with flipper is either against non-SC batsmen or against lower order ones. However his slider was much more difficult to pick as it is just a simple variation of the leg break, and Asian batsmen did fell for it unlike the flipper.

 

[Daemon]

Cleaned up Navjot Sidhu in the WC with a flipper. No mean feat, even Warne struggled to do it.

Around 3:30

Yeah that does look like a flipper. Gun delivery.

 

[TheJediBrah]

I do agree with Benaud. Once you are against batsmen who pick the ball out of hand, flipper is a huge give away. Asian batsmen just camped on the backfoot, just flicked, slapped or lofted it back over Warne's head once they started picking it. Warne's success with flipper is either against non-SC batsmen or against lower order ones. However his slider was much more difficult to pick as it is just a simple variation of the leg break, and Asian batsmen did fell for it unlike the flipper.

Never noticed this but now that you mention it, it does seem to mostly be English, South Africans, West Indians etc. that got out to the Warne's flipper

 

[stephen]

Never noticed this but now that you mention it, it does seem to mostly be English, South Africans, West Indians etc. that got out to the Warne's flipper

That's because Australia barely played any Asian teams between 92 and 98 when Warne's flipper was a weapon. I think Sri Lanka and Pakistan toured once each and the quicks were the destroyers.

Between the start of his career and the end of 1998 he played 67 tests - 51 against WI/SA/Eng/NZ and 16 against India/ Pakistan/Sri Lanka.

His average against Pakistan in this time was 19, India 70 and Sri Lanka 40. It must be stressed though that these are from very small sample sizes - two tests against Sri Lanka were from a tour to SL in 1992 before he came good and this time period was booked by his starting test against India and the India series he should never have played due to injury.

So it might be true that Asian batsmen could pick his flipper and played it well but at the same time he only played a handful tests against any Asian batsmen while his flipper was any good.

 

[stephen]

Other interesting Warne stats from pre-1999.

It's fair to say that most of his bowled/lbw wickets during this era were from flippers (though not all).

He got 55 batsmen lbw out of 313 wickets total. 10 of those were Asian - 9 Pakistan and one Sri Lankan.

He got 58 batsmen bowled. 7 of them were Asian - 4 Pakistanis, 1 Sri Lankan and 2 Indians.

 

[Bolo.]

Why was Warne so much better against Pak sides than the other SC ones? Legspin wasnt something new to them, and they had some solid bats in his era.

 

[Bahnz]

Never noticed this but now that you mention it, it does seem to mostly be English, South Africans, West Indians etc. that got out to the Warne's flipper

I remember Warne setting up Andrew Jones by bowling him an obvious **** flipper one ball to lure him into thinking he could reading it, and then cleaning him up with the real deal the next ball. Richie Benaud actually predicted it in real time.

I remember Warne saying in a doco somewhere that the flipper was so insanely difficult to bowl that it was always a huge source of satisfaction when it worked for him. Given that Warne could land a leggie on a sixpence at will and most modern leggies couldn't land it on a bath towell, I think the flipper is just too hard to bowl for the modern crop.

 

[stephen]

Why was Warne so much better against Pak sides than the other SC ones? Legspin wasnt something new to them, and they had some solid bats in his era.

Small sample size. Two of the SL tests were from 1992 before he came good. 5 of the tests vs India both before he was good and while he was playing injured. That's half the tests against Asian sides during this period.

He ended up bringing his average against both Sri Lanka and India down by a substantial amount (from 40 to 25 vs Sri Lanka and from 70 to 40 for India). His average vs Pakistan didn't change much.

 

[Migara]

Why was Warne so much better against Pak sides than the other SC ones? Legspin wasnt something new to them, and they had some solid bats in his era.

Pakistan of mid 90s onwards were poor against spin. It was Pakistan of late 70s and early 80s who used to destroy spin bowlers. They were equally poor against Murali too. India didn't play much, but I'd expect Kumble to boss that batting line up regularly.

 

[trundler]

Pakistan of mid 90s onwards were poor against spin. It was Pakistan of late 70s and early 80s who used to destroy spin bowlers. They were equally poor against Murali too. India didn't play much, but I'd expect Kumble to boss that batting line up regularly.

Got 10 in an innings against them..

 

[honestbharani]

stephen coming up with excuses for Warne is almost as good as ikki doing the same.

 

[GoodAreasShane]

That tosser has been gone for ages. Stop living in the past.

 

[TheJediBrah]

stephen coming up with excuses for Warne is almost as good as ikki doing the same.

why are you like this?

 

[honestbharani]

That tosser has been gone for ages. Stop living in the past.

stop reminding me of it.

 

[stephen]

stephen coming up with excuses for Warne is almost as good as ikki doing the same.

If the only way you can interpret rational discussion is "excuses" then there's no hope for you.

It's fair to say that the reason Warne didn't get as many wickets with the flipper against Asian batsmen is because he played Asian batsmen less when he was bowling the flipper. I was as interested in Migara's statement as anyone so I went and looked up some of the stats around that period.

There's such a small sample size of tests where a) Warne wasn't green AF; b) Warne bowled the flipper and c) Warne played Asian sides that he couldn't have gotten too many wickets with the flipper against them.

In the 90s India and Asia weren't the centre of the cricketing world. The prestigious teams to beat were the West Indies, Australia, England and South Africa. Warne played these three sides two to three times as much as the Asian nations.

But apparently hb thinks that's an excuse for not getting as many Asian batsmen out with the flipper. Frankly I'm getting tired of hb's personal attacks that don't add anything to the discussion. They seem to crop up in nearly every thread and I'm going to start reporting them if I see them.

 

[honestbharani]

If the only way you can interpret rational discussion is "excuses" then there's no hope for you.

It's fair to say that the reason Warne didn't get as many wickets with the flipper against Asian batsmen is because he played Asian batsmen less when he was bowling the flipper. I was as interested in Migara's statement as anyone so I went and looked up some of the stats around that period.

There's such a small sample size of tests where a) Warne wasn't green AF; b) Warne bowled the flipper and c) Warne played Asian sides that he couldn't have gotten too many wickets with the flipper against them.

In the 90s India and Asia weren't the centre of the cricketing world. The prestigious teams to beat were the West Indies, Australia, England and South Africa. Warne played these three sides two to three times as much as the Asian nations.

But apparently hb thinks that's an excuse for not getting as many Asian batsmen out with the flipper. Frankly I'm getting tired of hb's personal attacks that don't add anything to the discussion. They seem to crop up in nearly every thread and I'm going to start reporting them if I see them.

Rational discussion?

And what is a personal attack? Pointing out that you were offering excuses for soneone's poor performances just like another poster who used to say the same things about the same player on the same topic? You can refer to any page in the Warne, Vs Murali thread where ikki has posted to understand why..

And on the topic, mate, it does not matter who was prestigious and who was not. Lara played the entire 1999 series with a chipped elbow/wrist bone, Sachin played the 2004 series with his tennis elbow (at least half of it). Cricketers play with injuries all the time. The fact remains that his flipper was not as good against India because India were better at playing spin. Simple as. You act as if Warne invented the flipper and no one had ever heard of it before. Warne got wickets with his flipper because he was a great bowler and could use it very well but at the same time, there were also batsmen who could take him apart coz they had grown up on a diet of spin bowling. What is your excuse for Kambli smashing him in Sharjah then?

 

[GoodAreasShane]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, there needs to be a CW equivalent to Godwin's Law where anyone comparing anyone else to ikki has instantly lost the argument and should shut up before they embarrass themselves even futher