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Ashes dream teams

THE DON

Cricket Spectator
I have made up two ashes dream teams. What do you think of them.

England Australia
Hobbs Ponsford
Sutcliffe Trumper
Hammond Bradman
Compton G.Chapell
Hutton A.Border
Botham S.Waugh
Knott Gilchrist
Barnes Lindwall
Larwood Lillie
Laker Warne
Trueman Mcrath

My captains are Bradman and Hammond. What do you think and how can I improve my two teams.
 

a massive zebra

International Captain
Australia

Trumper
Hayden
Bradman (cpt)
G Chappell
Ponting
Gilchrist (wk)
Miller
Lindwall
Lillee
O'Reilly
McGrath

England

Hobbs
Hutton (cpt)
Hammond
Compton
Barrington
Botham
Knott (wk)
Larwood
Laker
Trueman
Barnes
 

a massive zebra

International Captain
THE DON said:
I have made up two ashes dream teams. What do you think of them.

England Australia
Hobbs Ponsford
Sutcliffe Trumper
Hammond Bradman
Compton G.Chapell
Hutton A.Border
Botham S.Waugh
Knott Gilchrist
Barnes Lindwall
Larwood Lillie
Laker Warne
Trueman Mcrath

My captains are Bradman and Hammond. What do you think and how can I improve my two teams.
Hammond was not a good captain. Hutton should be captain and Barrington should be in there somewhere. Barnes should bat at 11.

Drop either Border or Waugh for Miller.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
THE DON said:
I have made up two ashes dream teams. What do you think of them.

England Hobbs Sutcliffe
Hammond Compton Hutton Botham Knott Barnes Larwood Laker Trueman

What do you think and how can I improve my two teams.
The England attack lacks balance . I would remove one pacer (Trueman) and include a spinner (Verity or Rhodes) and I would not have three openers in the side. You can have Hobbs alongwith either Sutcliffe or Hutton and adda middle order batsman. My preference would be Ranji.

Thus Hobbs, Hutton (or Sutcliffe), Hammond, Ranji, Compton, Botham, Rhodes, Knott (maybe Evans), Larwood, Laker, Barnes.

Larwood and Barnes to open the bowling, Botham as well as Hammond can also bowl between medium to fast, Rhodes (or Verity) with left arm spin and Laker with off breaks. For leg breaks, you still have Barnes.

I would prefer, Hutton to lead.
 

a massive zebra

International Captain
SJS said:
The England attack lacks balance . I would remove one pacer (Trueman) and include a spinner (Verity or Rhodes) and I would not have three openers in the side. You can have Hobbs alongwith either Sutcliffe or Hutton and adda middle order batsman. My preference would be Ranji.

Thus Hobbs, Hutton (or Sutcliffe), Hammond, Ranji, Compton, Botham, Rhodes, Knott (maybe Evans), Larwood, Laker, Barnes.

Larwood and Barnes to open the bowling, Botham as well as Hammond can also bowl between medium to fast, Rhodes (or Verity) with left arm spin and Laker with off breaks. For leg breaks, you still have Barnes.

I would prefer, Hutton to lead.
How is Larwood (who had justone great series) better than Trueman.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Same problem with the Australian attack. Only one spinner. Unfortunately their best spinners are all leg spinners. I would still replace McGrath with Grimmett(inspite of Bradman's preference for Orielly), replace Border with Harvey, Waugh with Miller and Gilchrist (assuming this is a test match) with Oldfield).

Thus :- Trumper (mentioning Ponsford first is blasphemy), Ponsford, Bradman, Neil Harvey, G Chappell, Miller, Warne, Oldfield(if you want a modern day stumper then Healy), Lindwall, Lillee, Grimmett.

I know Border would provide some more variation with left arm spin but really, he doesnt belong in THIS class !!
 

a massive zebra

International Captain
SJS said:
Same problem with the Australian attack. Only one spinner. Unfortunately their best spinners are all leg spinners. I would still replace McGrath with Grimmett(inspite of Bradman's preference for Orielly), replace Border with Harvey, Waugh with Miller and Gilchrist (assuming this is a test match) with Oldfield).

Thus :- Trumper (mentioning Ponsford first is blasphemy), Ponsford, Bradman, Neil Harvey, G Chappell, Miller, Warne, Oldfield(if you want a modern day stumper then Healy), Lindwall, Lillee, Grimmett.

I know Border would provide some more variation with left arm spin but really, he doesnt belong in THIS class !!
A very long tail.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
a massive zebra said:
How is Larwood (who had justone great series) better than Trueman.
When one rates bowlers like Larwood, it is difficult to rate purely on statistics. One has to read what those who have seen him and played him have written to compare. The same would apply to some other cricketers too.

Besides it is not in the bodyline series that Larwood was at his best. His bowling earlier in England in 1930 against Australia both in tests and in side games was what made Jardine decide here was a way to counter Bradman.

He was very quick, deceptively so, extremely accurate, and moved the ball in the air and off the seam.

If one had to drop him for not having played enough tests, I would include Tate or Bedser before Trueman.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
a massive zebra said:
A very long tail.
I am not so sure. Miller batted many times at number four for Australia and scored big runs. He is at number six. Warne at seven is not a Bunny by any standards. Oldfield is not a top drawer batsman, so as I suggested, one could replace him with Healy and with Healy at 8 and Warne at 9, I would call that a very good batting side. Anyside with Bradman and Trumper shouldnt bother the tail mucj...no ?
 

a massive zebra

International Captain
SJS said:
When one rates bowlers like Larwood, it is difficult to rate purely on statistics. One has to read what those who have seen him and played him have written to compare. The same would apply to some other cricketers too.

Besides it is not in the bodyline series that Larwood was at his best. His bowling earlier in England in 1930 against Australia both in tests and in side games was what made Jardine decide here was a way to counter Bradman.

He was very quick, deceptively so, extremely accurate, and moved the ball in the air and off the seam.

If one had to drop him for not having played enough tests, I would include Tate or Bedser before Trueman.
Agree with you to a certain extent. Badgerhair thinks Harmison is better than Larwood. :D

All the same what have you got against Trueman?
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
a massive zebra said:
Agree with you to a certain extent. Badgerhair thinks Harmison is better than Larwood. :D

All the same what have you got against Trueman?
Okay. Good question. First, I have seen him bowl unlike most of you perhaps. I think he was a very fine bowler but a sort of a work horse. People like Tate, Bedser, Statham and Barnes did much more with the ball. Trueman put in more work but was not a master craftsman like these others .

He would thus have bad spells and would look ordinary. Tate and Bedser never looked ordinary. You could see their craft even when they did not get wickets. I think that was the difference.

It is like asking, why doesnt Barrington figure in the England batting order, if you know what I mean.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Before anyone asks, of course, I am not ancient enough to have seen Bedser and Tate but I have talked to people who have seen and played against Bedser.
 

a massive zebra

International Captain
SJS said:
Before anyone asks, of course, I am not ancient enough to have seen Bedser and Tate but I have talked to people who have seen and played against Bedser.
I certainly have not seen Tate but he was apparently not express and had a strike-rate of 80. Although he could bat.
 

a massive zebra

International Captain
SJS said:
Okay. Good question. First, I have seen him bowl unlike most of you perhaps. I think he was a very fine bowler but a sort of a work horse. People like Tate, Bedser, Statham and Barnes did much more with the ball. Trueman put in more work but was not a master craftsman like these others .

He would thus have bad spells and would look ordinary. Tate and Bedser never looked ordinary. You could see their craft even when they did not get wickets. I think that was the difference.

It is like asking, why doesnt Barrington figure in the England batting order, if you know what I mean.
You don't like picking players who lack flair? I understand your point but a lack of flair is not necessarily bad and can be ideal if your team is struggling. Based purely on flair Gower would be above Barrington in the pecking order.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
a massive zebra said:
I certainly have not seen Tate but he was apparently not express and had a strike-rate of 80. Although he could bat.
He was nearly 30 when he first played for England and 40 when he played his last test.

PLUS he bowled of a spinners run up , really. He amazed the batsmen with his nip off the wicket and took many slip fielders by surprise too. It is said, more catches were dropped off his bowling than were taken by bowlers at the other end.

He had a career economy rate of 1.9 runs per over ! Clearly the batsmen were loath to play strokes against him or couldnt.

This plus his age and type of bowling probably accounts for his strike rate. He still got his wickets at 26.1 runs each.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
a massive zebra said:
You don't like picking players who lack flair? I understand your point but a lack of flair is not necessarily bad and can be ideal if your team is struggling. Based purely on flair Gower would be above Barrington in the pecking order.
You are right about that but I meant something more than flair, something which separates the very very good from the truly great. I must concede though that I did not see Trueman at his peak.
 

JASON

Cricketer Of The Year
THE DON said:
I have made up two ashes dream teams. What do you think of them.

England Australia
Hobbs Ponsford
Sutcliffe Trumper
Hammond Bradman
Compton G.Chapell
Hutton A.Border
Botham S.Waugh
Knott Gilchrist
Barnes Lindwall
Larwood Lillie
Laker Warne
Trueman Mcrath

My captains are Bradman and Hammond. What do you think and how can I improve my two teams.
Of the Australian Team, replace DC Boon for Trumper, KR Stackpole or WM Lawry for GS Chappell, and RM Hogg for Lindwall. This is based on Ashes performances and not on career performance.
Rodney Hogg was feared by English Batsmen during (his short international career) the two or three Ashes series he played, taking 56 wickets at 17.00 .
Keith Stackpole (stacky) and (Bill) Lawry have better Ashes record than Greg Chapell. David Boon averages 45 odd in the Ashes to Trumpers 35 odd.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
JASON said:
Of the Australian Team, replace DC Boon for Trumper, KR Stackpole or WM Lawry for GS Chappell, and RM Hogg for Lindwall. This is based on Ashes performances and not on career performance.
Rodney Hogg was feared by English Batsmen during (his short international career) the two or three Ashes series he played, taking 56 wickets at 17.00 .
Keith Stackpole (stacky) and (Bill) Lawry have better Ashes record than Greg Chapell. David Boon averages 45 odd in the Ashes to Trumpers 35 odd.
It is amazing that you think Boon should replace Trumper. And you are an Australian !

Its also beyond comprehension that you compare , on the basis of batting average, two players who played a century apart. No consideration for the quality of wickets etc at all.

Till Bradman was half way through his career, Trumper was the name that occupied THE BATSMAN OF ALLTIME pedestal in cricket. There were those living then who had seen Trumper play and were seeing Bradman. But today, having seen neither, we decide that some one like Boon, heaven have mercy, is a better batsman that Victor Trumper because of their relative test batting averages in the Ashes. Phew...
 

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