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Sachin is to Kohli what Maradona is to Messi?

Is Sachin to Kohli what Maradona is to Messi?

  • Yes

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • No

    Votes: 5 100.0%
  • Total voters
    5
  • Poll closed .
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S

SachinFan

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
flibbertyjibber said:
Never heard of Pele?
Click to expand...
Of course have heard. Both Pele and Maradona are contenders for that title. Critiques of Pele often argue that many of Pele's achievements were against subpar clubs in his hometown. He never played in competitive leagues and teams like Barcelona.
 
GIMH

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
Connor Jennings is the GOAT and I’ll hear no argument to the contrary

(James who?)
 
0

_00_deathscar

International Regular
1. The Champions League is of a much, much higher quality and standard than the World Cup (which can’t be said about cricket JAMODIS/World Cup) but fair re: pedigree and the pressure that it brings. Having said that, that the pressure in a Champions League, especially when you get to knockout stages playing at home with your own fans or at oppositions has made even the most experienced players into complete duds who buckle under pressure (see Barcelona against Liverpool last season, at Anfield).
2. Funnily, Messi has often been accused of going missing in key Champions League games (top scorer courtesy of group stages, doesn’t score much in knockouts).
3. I can see where you’re going with the comparison and it’s a fair point. Kohli needed a dominant World Cup and/or some incredible knockout games/key runs in final and I think it’s safe to say he’d have eclipsed both Sachin and Viv with that. As it is, he had a decent World Cup but failed at the key stages.
4. I’d still consider Messi to be the greatest player of all time. The comparison is flawed because JAMODIS mean nothing, whereas leagues and European Cups mean a lot, and Messi has been performing to a standard consistently higher than almost anyone in history.
5. Fine margins - Messi (after scoring two goals) lays three easy chances to Dembele in the first leg vs Liverpool, he fluffs them all. Liverpool go on to knockout Barcelona in the second leg, 4-0, where Messi is largely anonymous.
Messi lays on golden chances for Higuain in 2014 final and he fluffs all of them (has also happened in other key games).
6. Cricket is a team sport but it’s a lot more easy to determine the worth of an individual performance because of the nature of the game (same can still happen in cricket too of course, players dropping catches etc) but it’s ever so slightly less reliant on your team mates than football is.
 
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Burgey

Burgey

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SachinFan said:
Thanks *****. Yes, I have read some of those posts. In fact, it is a pretty common myth that Sachin never played well in important matches (third most annoying myth, most annoying myth is that he played only for himself, second most annoying myth is that he never contributed to wins for India).

However, as the other posts claim, if he is indeed not that good in knockout matches, there must be someone greater than him? Who? Nobody ever delivers every time, so the question becomes, who delivers most frequently. If you consider all the potential candidates, none of them seems to match up with Tendulkar either on the big stage, or in knockouts:

tendulkar vs ponting
tendulkar vs lara
tendulkar vs kallis
tendulkar vs sangakkara
tendulkar vs hayden
tendulkar vs gilchrist
tendulkar vs inzamam
tendulkar vs ganguly
tendulkar vs haynes
tendulkar vs jayasuriya
tendulkar vs sehwag
tendulkar vs anwar
tendulkar vs dravid

None of them really matches up with Sachin, remotely. Hayden and Ganguly match to some extent, Dravid has a better World Cup record, but in to less matches to consider it too seriously, but Sachin trumps him totally in knockout matches.

The only player who has the better record in both cases, is Viv Richards, and that is pretty much undisputed:

tendulkar vs viv richards
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Hey mate, I appreciate your effort in putting these stats together, because it's a big effort to do so. But you can't seriously say Tendulkar had a better ODI record at delivering when it mattered most than either Ponting or Gilchrist, surely? Or Inzamam, come to that. I'd certainly agree he's better than Kohli in important matches, but so's Mike Veletta.
 
Burgey

Burgey

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SachinFan said:
There are no semis in 3 team tournaments like Titan Cup. He scored some 60 odd runs in the final of Titan Cup, and it is probably right to calculate it as a knockout match.
Click to expand...
Do you ascribe any weighting between the Titan Cup Final (massive though it no doubt was to fans all over the world) and a World Cup final?
 
OverratedSanity

OverratedSanity

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Burgey said:
Hey mate, I appreciate your effort in putting these stats together, because it's a big effort to do so. But you can't seriously say Tendulkar had a better ODI record at delivering when it mattered most than either Ponting or Gilchrist, surely? Or Inzamam, come to that. I'd certainly agree he's better than Kohli in important matches, but so's Mike Veletta.
Click to expand...
Ponting and Gilchrist played some excellent knocks in wc finals but those are hardly the only innings that matter are they, even by your own narrow view of what odi innings actually count as valuable. Apart from the ton against India in the 2003 final, Ponting has exactly one 50+ score in 9 other games which was the hundred against India in the 2011 QF. Two very good tons but it's not like he didn't fail in important games, he did. Quite a lot. His other knockout scores are:

31, 0, 45, 37, 24, 2, 22, 37.

If Ponting's part of a weaker team and puts up those scores, he probably doesn't even get to a wc final let alone win one.

On the other hand, Tendulkar's wc knockout scores are :
31 vs Pakistan 1996 qf
65 vs sl 1996 sf
83 vs Kenya 2003 sf
4 vs Australia 2003 final
53 vs Australia 2011 qf
85 vs Pakistan 2011 sf
18 vs sl 2011 final

You can argue that literally the only high pressure knockout games Tendulkar failed in were the two finals. Especially in 2011, there's no way India win either the quarter or the semi without Tendulkar. You're asking him to be literally a flawless batsman, which I don't think even his blindest fan would argue he is.
 
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Burgey

Burgey

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Nah I’m not asking him to be that at all. I’m saying he took the gas when it mattered most. And he plainly did. He was the batting equivalent of that footy side which plays at a really high standard through the regular season but doesn’t have what it takes to go up a gear and win a comp. I’m sorry, but that’s what he did on the biggest stage.

He was the Rohit Sharma of his era
 
OverratedSanity

OverratedSanity

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If Ponting had to face half the #pressure Tendulkar had to, he'd have burst into tears Steve Smith style before even coming out to bat.
 
Burgey

Burgey

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It’s also an insult to Tendulkar for Kohli to be compared with him at all after this WC.

I thought he’d really shine in this tourney and confirm his greatness, but he was horribly exposed especially under pressure in the KO games or when India really needed him. Surely the biggest disappointment of the WC along with Rashid Khan. Each of Root, Williamson and even Smith proved themselves better LO players when it matters, and Smith was disappointing by his standards save the semi final.
 
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