Sachin is to Kohli what Maradona is to Messi?

[harsh.ag]

I don’t apologise to *****, because his view on this topic is, frankly, perverse and reinforces I was right to raise the issue in the first place. Likewise harsh, whose idea that if you’re just a bit racist and only among your mates then it’s all ok is very disturbing tstl. Nor do I apologise to sunilz, whose default position seems to be that if an Indian cricketer relieves himself in a glass on a bridal table, the assembled wedding guests should all raise a glass to him in gratitude at his magnificent performance.

Yup, that's what I think.

 

[Burgey]

Yeah, Indians should give up their internal slang to cater to the western history of treating black people in a sub-human manner.

It's not. I was talking about domestic use only. Indians don't have to change their language when they don't have the spectre of slavery hanging over them.

Yup, that's what I think.

I mean, come on.

 

[harsh.ag]

It's a lack of imagination because of your particular place in life that you can't imagine the word monkey being used in a non-racial context.

I was the child with the fairest skin in the family. My mother used to call me "bandar" (monkey in Hindi) when I was being naughty. It was used as a slang term for behaving badly/in an uncivilized manner. I am saying that Indians using the term in this way in their circle have nothing to apologize for, or any need to change the usage of such slang.

 

[Burgey]

Question, and it’s a genuine one. Keeping in mind what I said before about usage - do you reckon I should say to a white bloke I play with “Why don’t we ask the P**i down the road if he wants to have a game this year?” You know, just among the two of us?

 

[Burgey]

It's a lack of imagination because of your particular place in life that you can't imagine the word monkey being used in a non-racial context.

I was the child with the fairest skin in the family. My mother used to call me "bandar" (monkey in Hindi) when I was being naughty. It was used as a slang term for behaving badly/in an uncivilized manner. I am saying that Indians using the term in this way in their circle have nothing to apologize for, or any need to change the usage of such slang.

I can see where you’re coming from re the first part of your last sentence to an extent, but not the second part tbh.

 

[ankitj]

Western folks don't probably understand that racism is not that big a bug bear in subcontinent. Are we racist? Hell yes. When we say 'casual racism', we mean very racist and unapologetic and/or ignorant about it. There was actually a study that found India is 2nd most racist country in the world (for some meme-worthy reason Jordan was 1st). And I am not surprised at all. But is India the country where racial justice is required most urgently in the world? Hell no. Simply because fault lines in Indian society are not along racial lines.

I bet no one who grew up in subcontinent can claim that the did not make or laughed at jokes with racial overtones in their childhood or teens that they will be embarrassed to repeat now after being exposed to western sensibilities about race.

 

[trundler]

I think the problem here is that you 2 are talking about 2 unrelated and separate contexts. The term monkey when referring to uncivilised children or troublemakers is perfectly fine in a subcontinental context whereas applying it to a race, even among your mates would be.. problematic. Harsh is talking about it from a perspective divorced from the Gavaskar case from which the confusion has arisen. Burgey needs up understand that generally, it simply doesn't have a racial connotation to us.

 

[harsh.ag]

Question, and it’s a genuine one. Keeping in mind what I said before about usage - do you reckon I should say to a white bloke I play with “Why don’t we ask the P**i down the road if he wants to have a game this year?” You know, just among the two of us?

But it's okay for two Pakistanis to call each other P**i, right? It would be bad if my mother used "bandar" for some random dark skinned kid in the community, but not if she is using it for me or some other kid in her circle who is being naughty.

 

[sledger]

Western folks don't probably understand that racism is not that big a bug bear in subcontinent. Are we racist? Hell yes. When we say 'casual racism', we mean very racist and unapologetic and/or ignorant about it. There was actually a study that found India is 2nd most racist country in the world (for some meme-worthy reason Jordan was 1st). And I am not surprised at all. But is India the country where racial justice is required most urgently in the world? Hell no. Simply because fault lines in Indian society are not along racial lines.

I bet no one who grew up in subcontinent can claim that the did not make or laughed at jokes with racial overtones in their childhood or teens that they will be embarrassed to repeat now after being exposed to western sensibilities about race.

I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise tbh. Pakistan has also been discussed in this thread, for example.

 

[sledger]

I think the problem here is that you 2 are talking about 2 unrelated and separate contexts. The term monkey when referring to uncivilised children or troublemakers is perfectly fine in a subcontinental context whereas applying it to a race, even among your mates would be.. problematic. Harsh is talking about it from a perspective divorced from the Gavaskar case from which the confusion has arisen. Burgey needs up understand that generally, it simply doesn't have a racial connotation to us.

Yes that's the problem

 

[Burgey]

I’m sure that’s probably the case for people in most countries re the joking thing, but I’m astonished Jordan or India came in ahead of this joint. Fmd we have the traditional owners of Uluru here who are closing climbing access to it in October, and who’ve been requesting for over 25 year that people not climb it, and there are white ****s *rushing* to book trips out there to climb it, and are saying they don’t give a **** about the traditional owners’ wishes.

They’re generally the same people who want our govt to stop the French building wind farms in fields on the Somme. Because, you know, sacred sites.

Not content to basically ignore the wishes of those people over 200 years, we’re now actively flipping them the bird. **** of a joint. Seriously

 

[Burgey]

I think the problem here is that you 2 are talking about 2 unrelated and separate contexts. The term monkey when referring to uncivilised children or troublemakers is perfectly fine in a subcontinental context whereas applying it to a race, even among your mates would be.. problematic. Harsh is talking about it from a perspective divorced from the Gavaskar case from which the confusion has arisen. Burgey needs up understand that generally, it simply doesn't have a racial connotation to us.

This is possibly true, and it’s very poor of harsh to derail the thread by taking my comments out of context, frankly.

 

[Starfighter]

Can harsh actually do something useful and either a) lock this thread or b) split at least part of it off into news & politics?

 

[trundler]

Yes that's the problem

Only works if you think the word monkey is universally and inherently racist

 

[harsh.ag]

Can harsh actually do something useful and either a) lock this thread or b) split at least part of it off into news & politics?

I did ban sunilz. You're welcome.

 

[Burgey]

Can harsh actually do something useful and either a) lock this thread or b) split at least part of it off into news & politics?

*Prepares for the WC stubbie to end up in Testing Forum.*

 

[trundler]

Casual racism in the SC is something worth having a legit discussion over so I think that bit should be separated

 

[Burgey]

I did ban sunilz. You're welcome.

Wish there was a like button on the mobile skin tbh

 

[cnerd123]

You haven't understood yet

They're not trying to have a discussion. This track has been played a thousand times before.

They're trying to derail the thread and start a flame war.

Burgey forced this topic into discussion because he has a whole lot of arguments and lines and dialogues saved up from over the years that he can use to paint people who disagree with him as being racist and insensitive, and only does this to stir **** up and create drama

He's not looking for a reasonable discussion and Sledger is just fanning the flames.

Just leave this alone.

Called it

It's so obvious what Burgey is doing here and yet no mod wants to step in and handle this poor behaviour

He's gotten what he wants too - gets sunilz banned and is able to insult a whole host of subcontinental posters behind the veil of righteous outrage

Let's just lock the thread and let Burgey celebrate another troll job well done already.

 

[aussie tragic]

Harsh is contributing constructively to an important debate. Stop trying to force your own agenda on the thread and let it develop organically.

What would be my agenda other than a new poster has started a great thread and over half of it is now polluted with racist and political comments? And I only reported it when Sunilz started posting his non-cricket trash. What's your agenda in supporting a racist, clearly derailed thread to continue here instead of in the political thread; that's what it's there for isn't it?