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View Poll Results: Is Virat Kohli the Greatest ODI bat of all Time

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  • Yes

    19 47.50%
  • No

    21 52.50%
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Thread: Virat Kohli, the greatest ODI bat ever?

  1. #16
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Zinzan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr_mister View Post
    Easily yes. Take off the rose coloured glasses
    Is there an argument along with that statement?

    Legitimately, and especially highlighted in Red Hill's 75-91 analysis, how is Kohli even close to be as far ahead of the pack today as Richards' was against his peers. Richard's SR of 90 came in an era where 70 was outstanding... I mean even the great Gordon Greenidge had a SR of 64 IIRC. Kohli's average is brilliant, but his SR is just up with his peers, it's not really outstanding.
    Last edited by Zinzan; 09-03-2019 at 10:20 PM.

  2. #17
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Zinzan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemon View Post
    Viv for me too. But I will say that it’s easier to be far ahead of the curve when most people haven’t really figured out the format.
    I don't know if I agree with that. How do we know that in 20 years the expected/par batting SR in ODI isn't 130? Would we then hold it against Kohli in only striking around 90 in his era, and say they hadn't really figured out the right batting approach back then?
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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Hill View Post
    For me it's still Viv.

    The top 5 batting at 3/4 in ODIs between 75-91 (Viv's era)

    Viv - Avg 52 : SR 91
    Miandad - Avg 44 : SR 67
    D. Jones - Avg 49 : SR 75
    Border - Avg 32 : SR 69
    R.Richardson -Avg 37 : Sr 65

    Viv was such a level above his peers in terms of scoring power and attitude that he was about 4 generations ahead of the development of the game. I'm not sure Kohli is that far ahead of the curve.

    Kohli is outstanding though....for me it's a three way argument between Viv, Kohli and AB DeVilliers now.
    Viv averaged 47 in ODIs, not 52. His SR was what put him ahead of the pack more than the average imo, as brilliant as it was. For Kohli it's the other way around.

    We also always leave out Abbas (I don't know where he usually batted tbf) who averaged 47 at an SR of 85 in the same era as Viv. The only peer who can match his stats, albeit playing only 1/3 of the games.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zinzan View Post
    I don't know if I agree with that. How do we know that in 20 years the expected/par batting SR in ODI isn't 130? Would we then hold it against Kohli in only striking around 90 in his era, and say they hadn't really figured out the right batting approach back then?
    Not really because the format has been around for a long time now.

    ODIs were much younger back then, which leaves room for that argument. Not saying that the other players just needed to flick a switch and instantly add 10 runs to their SR but it could have had a bit of effect. We saw this effect with T20Is as well, plenty of international players just didn't know how to approach the format.
    Last edited by Daemon; 09-03-2019 at 10:42 PM.


  5. #20
    International Debutant srbhkshk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zinzan View Post
    Is there an argument along with that statement?

    Legitimately, and especially highlighted in Red Hill's 75-91 analysis, how is Kohli even close to be as far ahead of the pack today as Richards' was against his peers. Richard's SR of 90 came in an era where 70 was outstanding... I mean even the great Gordon Greenidge had a SR of 64 IIRC. Kohli's average is brilliant, but his SR is just up with his peers, it's not really outstanding.
    It's not just up with his peers - it's consistently been ~8-9 points higher than average era SR, and his average is a lot higher than the era average compared to Viv.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemon View Post
    Viv averaged 47 in ODIs, not 52. His SR was what put him ahead of the pack more than the average imo, as brilliant as it was. For Kohli it's the other way around.

    We also always leave out Abbas (I don't know where he usually batted tbf) who averaged 47 at an SR of 85 in the same era as Viv. The only peer who can match his stats, albeit playing only 1/3 of the games.
    Averaged 52 batting in the 3 & 4 positions.
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  7. #22
    International Coach trundler's Avatar
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    I agree with Daemon. The only other batsman who really figured out ODIs from that period is Dean Jones.
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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Senile Sentry View Post
    Ab is clearly a rung below Kohli.
    For what reason? Especially when you say "clearly".

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Hill View Post
    For what reason? Especially when you say "clearly".
    For starters.. he averaged 7 points below Kohli. They have at the moment played same no of innings (maybe a few here or there )

  10. #25
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    Kohli's conversion rate is still unparalleled, no matter how you look at it.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by trundler View Post
    I agree with Daemon. The only other batsman who really figured out ODIs from that period is Dean Jones.
    That's entirely not true. There were plenty of great batsmen. There weren't the bats that they have now, and there weren't the smaller grounds. And largely most batsmen still played orthodox style shots.

    Guys like Miandad, Abbas, Boon, G.Chappell, Crowe etc were really good batsmen. It's just that the par score then was somewhere between 200-250, rather than closer to 300. To say that Viv was better than others because he'd "figured out" ODIs while the others hadn't pretty much just belittles how good he was. Make no mistake, he was something else.
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Senile Sentry View Post
    For starters.. he averaged 7 points below Kohli. They have at the moment played same no of innings (maybe a few here or there )
    Well, AB's SR is almost 10 clear of Kohli, so there's also that.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by trundler View Post
    I agree with Daemon. The only other batsman who really figured out ODIs from that period is Dean Jones.
    That's not exactly what I'm saying.

    But basically you had generations of players that didn't prioritise the very little and unimportant domestic limited over cricket they played. The priority was always Tests, and so a greater number of players didn't develop the limited overs skillset from a young age. Of course there were exceptions - players who were naturally aggressive even in Tests and players who adapted very quickly.

    Over time with the increasing importance of ODIs, you saw a higher proportion of players grow up placing emphasis on these limited overs skills. It then gets harder to be so far ahead of the curve.

    This could all be bollocks but I think it has an effect that's worth acknowledging. I'm also not saying it's the primary reason why Viv was ahead of his peers, that would be ridiculous.
    Last edited by Daemon; 09-03-2019 at 11:20 PM.

  14. #29
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    We'd better enjoy him while he's around. Players as good as him don't come along too often.
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  15. #30
    International Coach trundler's Avatar
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    What I meant to say was that whilst there were plenty of great bats around, they were all still 'conservative'. Richards and to lesser extent Jones had a different, more 'modern' approach. They were ahead of the times if you will. Plus, many teams changed their approach to ODIs from the late 80s to mid 90s without significant technological advancement. Richards and Jones just did it first. Miandad, Greenidge etc batted more or less the same way in ODIs and tests. Richards was backing up and hitting sixes over extra cover in the 70s! His extraordinary ability obviously was a bigger factor in allowing him to do outrageous stuff like that.

    Here's a scorecard that backs up my point: Full Scorecard of Australia vs West Indies, Australian Tri Series (CB Series), 3rd Final - Score Report | ESPNcricinfo.com

    This tells me Richards would've averaged 60 at 120 today, without any exaggeration.

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