Vettori

[Loony BoB]

Vettori to be next great NZ batsman?


Er, the numbers at the bottom are the "last x matches", which is how the averages were found. Go figure.

What are your thoughts on those stats, though? Is he really worth putting in to bowl in an international match? Is his batting really worth keeping him in? Is he a batting all rounder or a spin bowler who can bat?

[chicane]

Didn't he get a test hundred recently?

[Loony BoB]

Originally Posted by chicane

Didn't he get a test hundred recently?

Yeah, 137* against Pakistan.

[chicane]

Commendable effort against Shoaib, Sami and Shabbir.

[anzac]

in answer to your question - nope.............

I don't think he will be joining the likes of Cairns, Styris & Oram whose batting has kept them in the side apart from their bowling..............his batting average of 20 may be good for a #9, but not enough to warrant selection as a batsman who bowls some spin...............

[chicane]

Yeah he's like a spinner who can bat a bit....like Shane Warne or Anil Kumble(used to bat well dunno what's wrong now) or Saqlain Mushtaq.

[Loony BoB]

Originally Posted by anzac

in answer to your question - nope.............

I don't think he will be joining the likes of Cairns, Styris & Oram whose batting has kept them in the side apart from their bowling..............his batting average of 20 may be good for a #9, but not enough to warrant selection as a batsman who bowls some spin...............

That's the point I'm making - his overall batting average (20) in no way reflects how well he plays right now (average 40). That's like judging Richardson by his bowling efforts and saying he's one of (if not the) best bowlers in the team!

What I'm pointing out is that his batting average over the last ten matches is over 40 and about 43 for the last five matches. For the last ten matches, he quite literally has been a batter who can bowl if needed... and he seems to only be improving. It does make me scratch my head, though... where do you draw the line? Do you always have to go by career-length form or do you go by the last 10-20 matches? If you do go by the last ten matches, he quite blatantly is NOT a bowler and IS a batsman, with averages of around 70 and 40 respectively. Not bad for a lower order batsman, I might add, and a lot of middle order batsmen in the world wouldn't mind an average of 40 either!

Sidenote: I'm actually a big critic of Vettori, but I noticed how our all rounders tend to start as bowlers and finish as batsmen, investigated and found this. I thought it was pretty interesting. I looked into Cairns, Oram, Styris and Vettori. I found that in over 90% of the interval changes I checked, the batting average and the bowling average both went up, showing NZ all rounders are consistently improving their batting at the expense of their bowling. I think it totalled 13 up, 1 down. ODI's was something like 12 up, 6 down... (when an UP is the batting average / bowling average increasing and DOWN is decreasing - don't know if this makes sense without pulling the long list of stats down)

[marc71178]

Originally Posted by chicane

Yeah he's like a spinner who can bat a bit....like Shane Warne or Anil Kumble(used to bat well dunno what's wrong now) or Saqlain Mushtaq.

Or The King of Spain.

[Craig]

Originally Posted by chicane

Commendable effort against Shoaib, Sami and Shabbir.

Shoaib didnt play. Shabbir wasnt bad, was the pick of the Pakistanis. Sami bowled quite frankly rubbish in the first innings, then tightened it up second time around.

Consistentcy please Sami.

[anzac]

Originally Posted by Loony BoB

That's the point I'm making - his overall batting average (20) in no way reflects how well he plays right now (average 40). That's like judging Richardson by his bowling efforts and saying he's one of (if not the) best bowlers in the team!

What I'm pointing out is that his batting average over the last ten matches is over 40 and about 43 for the last five matches. For the last ten matches, he quite literally has been a batter who can bowl if needed... and he seems to only be improving. It does make me scratch my head, though... where do you draw the line? Do you always have to go by career-length form or do you go by the last 10-20 matches? If you do go by the last ten matches, he quite blatantly is NOT a bowler and IS a batsman, with averages of around 70 and 40 respectively. Not bad for a lower order batsman, I might add, and a lot of middle order batsmen in the world wouldn't mind an average of 40 either!

Sidenote: I'm actually a big critic of Vettori, but I noticed how our all rounders tend to start as bowlers and finish as batsmen, investigated and found this. I thought it was pretty interesting. I looked into Cairns, Oram, Styris and Vettori. I found that in over 90% of the interval changes I checked, the batting average and the bowling average both went up, showing NZ all rounders are consistently improving their batting at the expense of their bowling. I think it totalled 13 up, 1 down. ODI's was something like 12 up, 6 down... (when an UP is the batting average / bowling average increasing and DOWN is decreasing - don't know if this makes sense without pulling the long list of stats down)

I agree with you on all points...........

if you want to put it another way you could say that NZL is turning themselves into an imitation of the AUS & IND batting length..........I say imitation because of the number of converted allrounders, as opposed to specialist batsmen.....

and therein lies the problem - a number of converts & allrounders to score the runs, as well as to take the wickets..........at this stage we have only 2 specialist bowlers in Tuffey & Martin - not the basis for an attack to take 20 wickets in a match - let alone win a series!!!!!

as I've said b4 & referred to Bracewell's comments - it's time NZL started to look at the BIG picture which is to WIN matches and series - IMO this means forgeting about current player averages etc & looking at roles required (batting, bowling etc), and then picking the BEST starting lineup to achieve this - even to the extent of changing squad makeup for different touring conditions for BOTH batting & bowling - as opposed to sticking to the same core 12 players or so regardless......

[Kent]

Originally Posted by Loony BoB

That's the point I'm making - his overall batting average (20) in no way reflects how well he plays right now (average 40).

Vettori has become a prettier batsman since he started copying Fleming, and he's ahead of Rigger when he was say 24-25. I still think it would take a conscious effort by Vettori to put his bowling on the backburner and devote himself to a career as a batsman.

Vettori would have no problems asking for a chance higher up the order at the woeful ND, but getting into a future Black Caps side looks almost impossible. If Vettori can't break in any higher than 8, Bruce Martin should have him for breakfast as the best spinner still focused on that craft.

Oram and McCullum will be hogging the 6-7 area for a while, while Macca and Styris are still fairly young. The likes of Peter Fulton, Ross Taylor and Papps are clearly waiting in the wings, and hopefully Jesse Ryder will come back strongly next season, keen to make amends for being the kid that went AWOL.

Vettori strikes me as being more scientific than an open-minded person like Richardson. If his bowling doesn't come right soon, I'd pick him to become even more intense about fixing it or else give up the game completely. He was studying to be a pharmacist or something at one stage, so a life outside of cricket wouldn't be something he fears.

[Tim]

If Vettori could develop himself into more of a batsman who bowls, he'd be a terriffic ODI player for us considering he's quite a good defensive spin bowler in ODI's.
Considering how badly his bowling is going right now..I wouldn't mind betting he's thinking about doing a 'Mark Richardson'. But I still hope he continues to bowl spin often because he's ok in the ODI's.

[Tim]

If Taylor & Ryder fulfill their potential..we're going to have an extremely entertaining top order. Probably the most aggressive top order we've ever had if they can match it at the top level.

There's a good mix of attacking & defensive batsmen coming through. Ryder & Taylor being quite aggressive while Fulton, Papps, Nicol etc seem to like to take their time.

[anzac]

Originally Posted by Tim

If Vettori could develop himself into more of a batsman who bowls, he'd be a terriffic ODI player for us considering he's quite a good defensive spin bowler in ODI's.
Considering how badly his bowling is going right now..I wouldn't mind betting he's thinking about doing a 'Mark Richardson'. But I still hope he continues to bowl spin often because he's ok in the ODI's.

maybe we should change the title of the thread to .......
Vettori NZL's next Chris Harris??????? - in reference to him potentially becoming an ODI specialist.............

bottom line I agree that if his bowling does not improve then he will struggle to justify selection as a batsman, and should loose out to a specialist bowler - spin or otherwise...............

[anzac]

NZL post Cairns...........

1 Richardson
2 Fleming
3 Astle
4 Styris - batting allrounder
5 McMillan
6 McCullum
7 Oram - allrounder
8 Vettori - batting allrounder
9 Tuffey
10 Bond
11 C Martin / B Martin - depending on requirements e specialist bowling

?????????