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Thread: *Official* England Tour of West Indies 2019

  1. #751
    International Debutant Beamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan9 View Post
    He only has 2 years were he averages sub 30 with the ball, only averages sub 30 against 2 sides.Only 3 years where he averages 40 and above, only 2 opposition sides where he averages 40 +.

    None of his stats over anything but an extremely short period is incredible. He was merely good.
    This. I think Freddie is over-rated because his best performances were exceptional and he created quite a spectacle when he was on (think Ashes 05 over to Ponting for example, which was incredible).

    But for him to only have 5 test centuries after 79 tests is woeful considering his reputation. To put that into context, Holder already has 3 after 36 matches and a much higher best test score.

  2. #752
    International Captain andmark's Avatar
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    There's a risk of forgetting Holder's less memorable performances amongst all this. Like between 2014-16, Holder's bowling average was 41 and his batting average was 28.6. Even if you expand it to January 2018, the batting average is 29 and the bowling average is 38.52. For the talk of Flintoff only being good for short periods, the same can be said for Holder.
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  3. #753
    Cricketer Of The Year SillyCowCorner1's Avatar
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    I dreaded the comparisons. But it's here in full force
    Symmetry is beauty, beauty is truth. Breaking symmetry means breaking truth.

  4. #754
    International Captain andmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SillyCowCorner1 View Post
    I dreaded the comparisons. But it's here in full force
    Yeah, I know I'm guilty of it, but it's daft. Issues like context etc are valid, but what strikes me at the moment is that Holder hasn't even finished his career. Anything could happen until he retires. He could become good enough for Sobers comparisons or he could drop off.


  5. #755
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    I think when you of players such as Ponting, Langer, Gilchrist talk about Flintoff was the best (or one of) that they ever faced says more than what his stats say, IMO.

    His batting wasnít of the same standing but he was still useful. Not sure anyone at this point will talk so highly of Holder the batsman or bowler.

  6. #756
    Cricketer Of The Year SillyCowCorner1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andmark View Post
    Yeah, I know I'm guilty of it, but it's daft. Issues like context etc are valid, but what strikes me at the moment is that Holder hasn't even finished his career. Anything could happen until he retires. He could become good enough for Sobers comparisons or he could drop off.
    I think the comparison is as ridiculous as Flintoff think England's top 6 would chase down 600+ runs; provided that Holder gets to his double ton.


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  7. #757
    International Debutant Beamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andmark View Post
    There's a risk of forgetting Holder's less memorable performances amongst all this. Like between 2014-16, Holder's bowling average was 41 and his batting average was 28.6. Even if you expand it to January 2018, the batting average is 29 and the bowling average is 38.52. For the talk of Flintoff only being good for short periods, the same can be said for Holder.
    Good point. Who knows how Jason Holder will end up. I very much expect he will be much better than Freddie but we just don't know. My point is not really to compare the two at this stage but to point out how ridiculous Freddie's comments on Holder were when you consider his career. He clearly thinks he was a lot better than he actually was.

  8. #758
    International Debutant Beamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodster View Post
    I think when you of players such as Ponting, Langer, Gilchrist talk about Flintoff was the best (or one of) that they ever faced says more than what his stats say, IMO.

    His batting wasn’t of the same standing but he was still useful. Not sure anyone at this point will talk so highly of Holder the batsman or bowler.
    This is one of crickets debates that really gets me. Experiences over short periods of time render career stats completely pointless according to some. I tend to focus more on stats personally with a bit of aesthetics thrown in.

    According to Mark Butcher and Graham Thorpe, Tino Best and Fidel Edwards bowling in 2004 was the fastest and most difficult bowling they had faced until then. I don;t really rate them as bowlers because of that statement based on one series.

    Also don't agree on the batting. I think Jason Holder is a technically much better batsman than Freddie ever was and anyone who saw his maiden ton saving a test against England will remember that. He also hit 8 sixes in his innings during the last test which was pretty incredible.
    Last edited by Beamer; 28-01-2019 at 10:29 AM.

  9. #759
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beamer View Post
    This is one of crickets debates that really gets me. Experiences over short periods of time render career stats completely pointless according to some. I tend to focus more on stats personally with a bit of aesthetics thrown in.

    According to Mark Butcher and Graham Thorpe, Tino Best and Fidel Edwards bowling in 2004 was the fastest and most difficult bowling they had faced until then. I don;t really rate them as bowlers because of that statement based on one series.

    Also don't agree on the batting. I think Jason Holder is a technically much better batsman than Freddie ever was and anyone who saw his maiden ton saving a test against England will remember that. He also hit 8 sixes in his innings during the last test which was pretty incredible.
    I never mentioned Holderís batting, I was referring to Freddieís batting in relation to his bowling.

    Iím fairly certain the likes of Ponting, Langer, Gilchrist arenít basing their judgements on a single series where Freddie may have peaked. Iím not disregarding stats at all, Iím saying they donít always tell the whole story and there was much more to Flintoff than what his stats show.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beamer View Post
    Our selectors don;t really think of things like that tbh. So I doubt it would matter. Hopefully they will make the decision on the basis of the pitch and not nationality.
    They definitely shouldn't decide on that basis but think they might as there is a lot of politics involved. Ticket sales amongst locals will be higher if one of their own is playing. They should try to produce a simular pitch and go with 4 seamers and chase again. If they do and we select broad then it will make for a fantastic test

  11. #761
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    Flintoff 2004 to 2006 was the best fast bowler in the world. McGrath had a terrible haircut during this period.
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  12. #762
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    Quote Originally Posted by andmark View Post
    There's a risk of forgetting Holder's less memorable performances amongst all this. Like between 2014-16, Holder's bowling average was 41 and his batting average was 28.6. Even if you expand it to January 2018, the batting average is 29 and the bowling average is 38.52. For the talk of Flintoff only being good for short periods, the same can be said for Holder.
    If you want to compare first three years of international cricket...Flintoff's first 3 years , batting average of 13.63 and bowling average of 44.15.

  13. #763
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodster View Post
    I never mentioned Holderís batting, I was referring to Freddieís batting in relation to his bowling.

    Iím fairly certain the likes of Ponting, Langer, Gilchrist arenít basing their judgements on a single series where Freddie may have peaked. Iím not disregarding stats at all, Iím saying they donít always tell the whole story and there was much more to Flintoff than what his stats show.
    Stats are the only unbiased measurement of a players performance. Opinions are always biased.

  14. #764
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan9 View Post
    Stats are the only unbiased measurement of a players performance. Opinions are always biased.
    Stats can be manipulated to serve whichever side of the argument you're on. I don't doubt they can be a valuable tool, but a full and final judgement cannot be made purely from the numbers, imo.
    http://batallday.blogspot.com/ - Cricket blog dedicated to domestic cricket.

  15. #765
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    'I would understand if I was dropped for Antigua Test' - Ben Foakes | ESPNcricinfo.com

    Not sure I'd be quite so understanding. I appreciate there is fierce for competition for the keeper/batsman role but Foakes was Man of the Series in Sri Lanka, yes he was below par in the opening Test here, but he deserves his place having shown his ability with the bat and is widely acknowledge as the finest gloveman we have.

    Bairstow's form in the last 12 months does not really demand a Test spot (averaging around 30), although he is currently batting out of position on this tour. I'm a fan of Bairstow and he is probably one of our best batsmen despite his recent average so I'd have no problem with all three being selected again.

    Jos Buttler has unbelievable talent, he has to stay in the side for me.



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