What Qualifies as a Test Allrounder?

[Red]

Bailey and McKay hardly took 1-2 wickets per match and their batting was limited to 30-40 runs per match.

Watson was under bowled through out his career and was not good enough to be in the team as a pure test batsman.

This is precisely why these guys WERE all rounders. They might not have made the team on one discipline alone (although they might have also) but the sum of their parts made them very valuable. To say they are not all-rounders based on arbitrary stats makes no sense. They were selected to play tests because they were all-rounders! Having a criteria for all rounders that says they should be selected on one discipline alone is not a good criteria.

 

[Red]

Regarding guys like Davidson, Benaud, Hadlee, and probably Wasim and Marshall, I think they would have been very capable of batting 6/7 but their bowling workloads precluded them from being able to offer more substantial innings with the bat. It's near impossible to be a frontline bowler who also make regular/substantial/long contributions with the bat at test level. Makes more sense for these guys to bat at 8 or 9.

Which makes you realise what a freak Sobers was. Bowled a huge amount of overs and also maintained an absolutely elite batting avg. He must've been incredibly fit.

 

[Days of Grace]

Sobers also loved late nights out which makes his feats even more amazing.

 

[Migara]

Regarding guys like Davidson, Benaud, Hadlee, and probably Wasim and Marshall, I think they would have been very capable of batting 6/7 but their bowling workloads precluded them from being able to offer more substantial innings with the bat. It's near impossible to be a frontline bowler who also make regular/substantial/long contributions with the bat at test level. Makes more sense for these guys to bat at 8 or 9.

Which makes you realise what a freak Sobers was. Bowled a huge amount of overs and also maintained an absolutely elite batting avg. He must've been incredibly fit.

The exact reason why Kallis and Shakib should be held very highly.

 

[AnthonyC]

How much does Strike Rate come into batting stats?

Part of the attraction of Gilchrist to Australians is not just his average but the rate he got runs, that turns draws into wins.


Mmmm if you put "alan keith davidson stats" into Google there is stats page that gives 1328 runs in 1064, clearly this is an error, as it renders a strike rate of 124.8 in Tests.

 

[Second Spitter]

Malcolm Marshall was probably a better batsman than people gave him credit for, even though the stats don't really support that. Seven FC tons and 50-odd 50's in the 80's SS/RSC is nothing to sneeze at.

He didn't seem to take batting very seriously (apart from the time he came out with a broken hand).

 

[ankitj]

Whether or not you played as an allrounder shouldn't be measured by how good you were at it. Shivron Hetmyer averages 19, but he's still a batsman.

I agree with this. Your criteria should be based on how much of all-rounder role you performed (e.g. % innings batted, % innings bowled etc.) and not whether you did well (i.e. bowling or batting average). You could be be an all-rounder while being completely terrible at it.

 

[mr_mister]

Maybe DOG is trying to separate all rounder from no rounder

 

[Red]

Malcolm Marshall was probably a better batsman than people gave him credit for, even though the stats don't really support that. Seven FC tons and 50-odd 50's in the 80's SS/RSC is nothing to sneeze at.

He didn't seem to take batting very seriously (apart from the time he came out with a broken hand).

I recall Clive LLoyd mentioning in some interview that Marshall could have easily played tests as a batsman if he wasn't a bowler

 

[AndrewB]

I recall Clive LLoyd mentioning in some interview that Marshall could have easily played tests as a batsman if he wasn't a bowler

It's easy to say these things, but Marshall would have had to double his average to be a successful Test batsman, and by that logic you might reckon that Miller, Imran, Botham and Kapil could have averaged 60+ if they hadn't been bowlers.

 

[aussie tragic]

My 2 cents

To be a batting allrounder, you need to bat higher than the keeper so average 30+ while their bowling needs to be at least half that of a frontline bowler (ie bowl 10 overs a day with the 4 main bowlers bowling 20)

For a bowling allrounder, you need to have a full bowling load, while batting 8 with average just less than the keeper.

In other words, assuming keeper averages 30, a batting allrounder needs to average in the 30's in both disciplines, while a bowling allrounder needs to average in the 20's in both.

Anyone that does better than above is an exceptional allrounder

 

[Second Spitter]

It's easy to say these things, but Marshall would have had to double his average to be a successful Test batsman, and by that logic you might reckon that Miller, Imran, Botham and Kapil could have averaged 60+ if they hadn't been bowlers.

I think the idea behind the quote was that Marshall had batting talent that he never used. The other Windian quick which falls into the same category is Holding, who unlike Marshall was a natural athlete.

In general, Windian tailenders of the 80's took a half-ar$ed attitude towards batting............ not unlike their contemporary top-order batsmen.

 

[Days of Grace]

A qualification of 1000 runs/50 wickets and 25.00+ adjusted batting average and 1.00+ wickets per innings gives the following list (Batting rating + Bowling rating divided by 1500 then multiplied by 1000):

1 Imran Khan 36.64 22.19 2.55 991
2 GS Sobers 54.90 32.58 1.48 969
3 Sir RJ Hadlee 27.22 21.95 2.87 964
4 IT Botham 33.62 27.74 2.28 926
5 JH Kallis 50.58 32.63 1.08 925
6 SM Pollock 32.31 21.82 2.08 896
7 N Kapil Dev 31.05 28.09 1.91 874
8 R Ashwin 27.76 23.46 2.80 868
9 Shakib Al Hasan 36.54 28.97 2.20 834
10 RA Jadeja 30.53 21.45 2.47 827
11 CL Cairns 32.73 28.25 2.10 827
12 KR Miller 35.18 23.48 1.79 822
13 GA Faulkner 49.11 32.71 1.91 805
14 AW Greig 40.43 32.20 1.52 795
15 Mushtaq Mohammad 39.17 29.22 1.13 791
16 DL Vettori 30.15 31.45 1.95 783
17 TL Goddard 34.46 26.22 1.64 773
18 W Rhodes 37.16 31.08 1.41 754
19 A Flintoff 31.89 33.34 1.62 748
20 MH Mankad 31.47 32.32 2.31 732
21 MA Noble 37.23 30.77 1.70 718
22 BA Stokes 31.90 31.29 1.40 712
23 JR Reid 33.28 33.35 1.18 701
24 TE Bailey 29.74 29.21 1.39 701
25 WW Armstrong 43.23 41.34 1.09 696
26 JO Holder 28.68 26.82 1.46 684
27 RJ Shastri 35.79 40.96 1.21 669
28 BM McMillan 39.36 33.82 1.17 663
29 GE Gomez 29.39 26.58 1.26 662
30 JM Gregory 35.84 30.21 2.02 662
31 MM Ali 30.37 36.75 1.59 649
32 IK Pathan 29.71 30.36 1.85 647
33 C Kelleway 46.06 39.83 1.18 646
34 M Prabhakar 32.65 37.30 1.41 646
35 DJ Bravo 29.57 37.49 1.41 632
36 JDP Oram 34.18 31.11 1.09 631
37 GRJ Matthews 41.08 48.22 1.30 626
38 RG Nadkarni 25.70 29.07 1.35 623
39 G Giffen 31.38 45.63 2.40 613
40 Abdul Razzaq 28.61 36.94 1.32 612
41 DG Phadkar 32.34 36.85 1.29 604
42 CR Woakes 28.86 31.00 1.50 601
43 G Miller 25.80 30.98 1.20 600
44 SA Durani 25.04 35.42 1.63 590
45 JH Sinclair 28.59 38.99 1.54 549

 

[Starfighter]

Not a long list, no glaring inconsistencies in terms of who's included. Still slightly too generous to the modern player I feel. Kelleway's adjusted averages are glaringly high, Armstrong's and maybe Giffen's bowling too. Would be interested to know what Wasim's, Davidson's and Benaud's adjusted averages are, the exclusion of Benaud doesn't wash with me at all.

 

[ankitj]

So Imran > Sobers in this analysis. Wonder how many people on here agree with that. A poll might not be a bad idea.

 

[Flametree]

If Greg Matthews makes the list but Richie Benaud doesn't, the qualifying criteria aren't right.

I'd want all of Keith Boyce, Shane Watson and Collie Smith in the list,, so that would require expansion of all lower thresholds.

Even if you don't agree with all that, there is a bit of a mismatch in the batting/bowling lower thresholds. To qualify for the batting at the lowest limits needs 40 completed innings (at 25 runs per innings), but to qualify for the bowling needs 50 innings (at 1 wicket per inns). If the batting limit is 1000 runs, the bowling should be 40 wickets...

 

[Starfighter]

iirc I said that one wicket per innings was too high earlier itt.

 

[Days of Grace]

Would you be fine with Graeme Swann and Ryan Harris on the list?

 

[Days of Grace]

iirc I said that one wicket per innings was too high earlier itt.

Doug Walters would be Australia's greatest allrounder if you allowed him onto the list.

 

[cnerd123]

Shakib > Miller

BD's best > Australia's best

Seems right to me