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Thread: Seam and conventional swing bowlers

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starfighter View Post
    I'd say Wasim was a better conventional swing bowler by a good margin.
    Could be. It's definitely easy to default to this position. I'm not sure Mcgrath gets his due as a swing bowler on account of it being a secondary skill. Mcgrath seemed to practically be Anderson when bowling swing, and even if he wasn't Wasim quality, maybe the gap is smaller than that of the seam difference?

    IDK, just spitballing.

  2. #32
    International Captain MW1304's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    Yeah he primarily bowled outswong when he was younger but developed both leg and offcutters as he got older. About the only thing he couldn’t bowl well was a Yorker tbh.

    The ball he got Vic with on that day in Melbourne wa da subtle little inswwonger afte rhed ser him up with a couple of outies just on stumps. He KO’ed boycott with an off cutter a year or two earlier which boycs didn’t offer a shot too after he’d bowled exclusively leg cutters and outswingers to him for an hour. Bloke was a crazy smart bowler.
    Er, you okay there Burge?

  3. #33
    The Tiger King smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolo View Post
    Could be. It's definitely easy to default to this position. I'm not sure Mcgrath gets his due as a swing bowler on account of it being a secondary skill. Mcgrath seemed to practically be Anderson when bowling swing, and even if he wasn't Wasim quality, maybe the gap is smaller than that of the seam difference?

    IDK, just spitballing.
    McGrath really wasn't a great swing bowler. He didn't need to be. His method worked on all wickets around the world. He could swing the ball for sure (could even reverse it a bit) but he was nothing special in the swing department.
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    And smalishah's avatar is the most classy one by far Jan certainly echoes the sentiments of CW

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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalishah84 View Post
    McGrath really wasn't a great swing bowler. He didn't need to be. His method worked on all wickets around the world. He could swing the ball for sure (could even reverse it a bit) but he was nothing special in the swing department.
    So I've heard. He looked excellent to me when he was trying to bowl swing instead of seam though, even if it was not as good as his seam.

    He accidentally swung it from the to time (more often than on purpose?) and maybe wasn't at his best then, but any bowler looks bad when they are below their best.

    His reverse was nothing special, but it's a different question.

    So few names put forward in response to the question. If people were praising a number of bowlers in the same way as Asif I might not be going out of my way to give Mcgrath props here. But it does feel like he must be near the top of the pile when considering both.


  5. #35
    The Tiger King smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolo View Post
    So I've heard. He looked excellent to me when he was trying to bowl swing instead of seam though, even if it was not as good as his seam.

    He accidentally swung it from the to time (more often than on purpose?) and maybe wasn't at his best then, but any bowler looks bad when they are below their best.

    His reverse was nothing special, but it's a different question.

    So few names put forward in response to the question. If people were praising a number of bowlers in the same way as Asif I might not be going out of my way to give Mcgrath props here. But it does feel like he must be near the top of the pile when considering both.
    I followed a fair bit of his career and I really don't recall him being very special in swinging the ball. He was very very good with seam and accuracy though.

    Richie Benaud put it very nicely though "if you wake McGrath in the middle of the night and ask him to bowl, he would still land them on a sixpence over after over"

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolo View Post
    Could be. It's definitely easy to default to this position. I'm not sure Mcgrath gets his due as a swing bowler on account of it being a secondary skill. Mcgrath seemed to practically be Anderson when bowling swing, and even if he wasn't Wasim quality, maybe the gap is smaller than that of the seam difference?
    Point out a time when McGrath ran though a side bowling conventional swing, let alone Anderson like. I'd hesitate to say he took more a than low single figures % of his test wickets with conventional swing at the most.
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  7. #37
    International Captain the big bambino's Avatar
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    Yeah McGrath was great but not much of a swing bowler, let alone someone who could produce those World Cup deliveries like Akram

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starfighter View Post
    Point out a time when McGrath ran though a side bowling conventional swing, let alone Anderson like. I'd hesitate to say he took more a than low single figures % of his test wickets with conventional swing at the most.
    I don't remember him ever running through a side with swing, and I'm sure his wicket % is low. But I think this reflects more on his ability to bowl seam than swing. Seam being his preferred mode doesn't mean he wasn't quality when he went that route.

    As pure seamers, the only guys I'd think of putting in McGraths tier were Ambrose, Pollock and Philander. None of them close to his quality as swing bowlers, even if you consider Mcgrath pretty mediocre. Clearly top of the pile for this balance and deserves some credit.

    If Mcgrath were only allowed to bowl swing, I'd back him ahead of just about any predominantly swing bowler only bowling seam. This may not be a fair comparison though- the value add from their seam might far exceed his swing because they can mix up the two

  9. #39
    International Coach Starfighter's Avatar
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    When did he go that route though? Part of the reason why he didn't perform in his first few matches was because he was trying to bowl outswing and didn't bowl well as a result.

    Pollock was definitely a better swing bowler and actually used it with some regularity.

  10. #40
    The Tiger King smalishah84's Avatar
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    yeah, I'd put Pollock ahead of McGrath for swing too. Both were just not well known for swing though. Both didn't need it too much either.
    Last edited by smalishah84; 12-12-2018 at 05:50 PM.

  11. #41
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    Pollock is underrated as a bowler, somewhat of a by product of his peak being post Donald but pre Steyn.
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    I'm clearly missing some memory of early Pollock- the comment about him being a good outswing bowler at the start of his career was a surprise.

    I remember him occasionally getting a nibble, but I can't remember a ball where I got the impression he did it on purpose. Even his seam was a product of chance not control.

    I saw Mcgrath bowl consistent and controlled swing that seemed threatening, even if not his most productive. Maybe my impression is skewed by an unusual sample, but he looked quality. His regular skills plus a hint of away is a good combo. I'm not sure, but I think he may have been trying to hoop it at the start of his career, which would explain failure.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolo View Post
    I'm clearly missing some memory of early Pollock- the comment about him being a good outswing bowler at the start of his career was a surprise.

    I remember him occasionally getting a nibble, but I can't remember a ball where I got the impression he did it on purpose. Even his seam was a product of chance not control.

    I saw Mcgrath bowl consistent and controlled swing that seemed threatening, even if not his most productive. Maybe my impression is skewed by an unusual sample, but he looked quality. His regular skills plus a hint of away is a good combo. I'm not sure, but I think he may have been trying to hoop it at the start of his career, which would explain failure.
    Are you sure you don't have the two mixed up? Can you name a specific series?

  14. #44
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    I feel like we've had this conversation on here a few time already with someone, might have been Bolo, insisting that McGrath was a swing bowler and swung the ball all the time

    McGrath very rarely, if ever, swung the ball at all. A bit of slow reverse with the old ball (and literally the first 1 or 2 deliveries with the newey) was about it.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheJediBrah View Post
    I feel like we've had this conversation on here a few time already with someone, might have been Bolo, insisting that McGrath was a swing bowler and swung the ball all the time

    McGrath very rarely, if ever, swung the ball at all. A bit of slow reverse with the old ball (and literally the first 1 or 2 deliveries with the newey) was about it.
    I think you are remembering a conversation with me, just not completely. I said I remembered Mcgrath predominantly as a swing bowler, but accepted that this didn't accurately represent his career.

    Simply remembering badly, having one or two unusual spells stand out and possibly confusing reverse and conventional all might play a role

    If nothing else though, I saw him put through a sequence of high quality outswing. It's more than I can remember a bowler of highest calibre in one discipline managing in their weaker one, even if Pollock shows it did actually happen even if only considering bowlers I actually watched.

    Mcgrath wasn't exactly Mitch. If he managed even a single quality spell of conventional he would have been able to turn it into pretty consistent feature. He just chose not to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starfighter View Post
    Are you sure you don't have the two mixed up? Can you name a specific series?
    Not mixing the two up. Memory obviously an issue, but this isn't the problem.

    Can't name a series. Impression formed sometime in the 90s though I think.

    Anyway, I'll defer to concensus and disregard Mcgrath. Even if my dubious idea that he could bowl quality conventional was acceptable, he could only do so at the expense of his excellent seam- not a good idea.
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