CW chooses the best test spinner ever (50 names, but you only submit a list of 20)

[NotMcKenzie]

Descending:

O'Reilly
Grimmett
Warne
Verity
Benaud
Wardle
Gibbs
Tayfield
Trumble
Laker
MacGill
Ironmonger
Iverson
Underwood
Mailey
Mallett
Blythe
Briggs
Freeman
Rhodes

 

[a massive zebra]

I really do not know how to rate Laker. In my mind he is close to Tayfield in terms of quality, had a short career and England didn't tour with him to Aus much but then again 19/90 and he has an excellent strike rate for the era. Does anyone know how he was perceived in his time? Not sure if he should be above or below Herath.

Laker's career was not particularly short as he played Tests for over 10 years. The issue is he was not a regular in the side for the first half of his career, because:

a) He had a moderate start to his Test career (1948-50) and was still learning his trade until his late 20s. After three years of Test cricket, Laker had taken just 32 wickets @ 37.
b) Len Hutton didn't really want Laker in his side (1952-55). He believed Yorkshiremen should play for Yorkshire and considered Laker a traitor.
c) England had so many great bowlers at the time (1950-59). The likes of Bedser, Statham, Tyson, Trueman, Wardle, Lock and Appleyard gave England arguably the best bowling depth of any Test side ever. West Indies in the late 1970s to mid 1980s is a possible exception, but England's resources were more balanced.

Laker did tour Australia in 1958/59 and took 15 wickets @ 21. Outstanding figures for a finger spinner in Australia.

 

[Starfighter]

O'Reilly
Warne
Laker
Trumble
Verity
Grimmett
Benaud
Gibbs
Underwood
Tayfield
Swann
Wardle
Bedi
Kumble
McGill
Rhodes
Briggs
Murali
Ironmonger
Qasim

 

[Red]

OReilly
Warne
Grimmett
Murali
Tayfield
Peel
Saqlain
Kumble
Laker
MacGill
Benaud
Harbhajan
Underwood
Gibbs
Ashwin
Bedi
Faulkner
Chandra
Ironmonger
Swann

 

[trundler]

Grimmett vs Murali is very, very interesting.

- Both average 6 WPM
- Both average about 32 against the best batting side against spin of the time.
- Both royally owned minnows.

 

[Bolo]

Grimmett vs Murali is very, very interesting.

- Both average 6 WPM
- Both average about 32 against the best batting side against spin of the time.
- Both royally owned minnows.

It ends there though. Grimmett bowled most of his matches against a really, really strong team, but also bowled a huge proportion against really weak lineups (minnows might taking it a bit far though). Murali was middle of the road in terms of who he faced in comparison, because he bowled to so many teams.

It's really tough to compare spinners across eras (and even countries) using stats. They are so condition (and rule) dependent that results are going vary wildly. In general I just default to the ones who have proved themselves in the most comprehensive set of circumstances if there is some doubt.

 

[trundler]

It ends there though. Grimmett bowled most of his matches against a really, really strong team, but also bowled a huge proportion against really weak lineups (minnows might taking it a bit far though). Murali was middle of the road in terms of who he faced in comparison, because he bowled to so many teams.

It's really tough to compare spinners across eras (and even countries) using stats. They are so condition (and rule) dependent that results are going vary wildly. In general I just default to the ones who have proved themselves in the most comprehensive set of circumstances if there is some doubt.

Grimmett didn't get to play as much as he should have whereas Murali ended the most accomplished bowler ever. Tend to go with Murali as I believe (based on **** all) he had more x factor.

The only thing clear-cut for me is O'Reilly being #1.

 

[Bolo]

Grimmett didn't get to play as much as he should have whereas Murali ended the most accomplished bowler ever. Tend to go with Murali as I believe (based on **** all) he had more x factor.

The only thing clear-cut for me is O'Reilly being #1.

Hard to say how O'Reilly would have done in another era. Modern cricket hasn't been kind to faster spin.

There isn't a clear-cut best bowler to me. There's an argument for a bunch of guys, including O'Reilly. There's a clear-cut greatest spinner though, and that's the guy with 800 wickets.

 

[trundler]

Nah. Most accomplished definitely and greatest in living memory too. Would be foolish to gauge O'Reilly by comparing him to other quick spinners. Guy was a beast and pretty unique. Wouldn't call him condition reliant at all. Took 22 in 5 matches at sub 30 on flat pitches where England put up over 900 which he described as 'dosed up to the eyeballs'.

 

[Slifer]

O Reilly
Warne
Murali
Grimmet
Laker
Verity
Underwood
Tayfield
Benaud
Kumble
Faulkner
Gibbs
Chandra
Macgill
Bedi
Gupte
Saqlain
Swann
Ramadhin
Qasim

Admittedly I don't know spinners as well as I do fast bowlers.

 

[Singh767]

I have included test bowling averages to help out others who have not ranked yet (CricInfo I love you lol). This is my order, ranked. Blythe needs more loving on here!

Rank Name Test Average
1 Warne 25.41
2 Murali 22.72
3 Laker 21.24
4 Blythe 18.63
5 O'Reilly 22.13
6 Underwood 25.83
7 Trumble 21.78
8 Hugh Tayfield 25.91
9 Grimmett 24.21
10 Ashwin 25.38
11 Stuart MacGill 29.02
12 Benaud 27.03
13 Swann 29.96
14 Anil Kumble 29.65
15 Bedi 28.71
16 Hedley Verity 24.37
17 Rangana Herath 27.95
18 Ironmonger 17.97
19 Saqlain 29.93
20 Gibbs 29.09

 

[Bolo]

Nah. Most accomplished definitely and greatest in living memory too. Would be foolish to gauge O'Reilly by comparing him to other quick spinners. Guy was a beast and pretty unique. Wouldn't call him condition reliant at all. Took 22 in 5 matches at sub 30 on flat pitches where England put up over 900 which he described as 'dosed up to the eyeballs'.

Every spinner is condition reliant. There aren't exceptions, just degrees. Pitches in O'Reilly's time might have been generally flat, but they seemed to give a lot of help to spinners. 3 sub 25 spinners in O'Reilly's team alone. One in the entire world in the last 60 or so years.

 

[trundler]

I have included test bowling averages to help out others who have not ranked yet (CricInfo I love you lol). This is my order, ranked. Blythe needs more loving on here!

Rank Name Test Average
1 Warne 25.41
2 Murali 22.72
3 Laker 21.24
4 Blythe 18.63
5 O'Reilly 22.13
6 Underwood 25.83
7 Trumble 21.78
8 Hugh Tayfield 25.91
9 Grimmett 24.21
10 Ashwin 25.38
11 Stuart MacGill 29.02
12 Benaud 27.03
13 Swann 29.96
14 Anil Kumble 29.65
15 Bedi 28.71
16 Hedley Verity 24.37
17 Rangana Herath 27.95
18 Ironmonger 17.97
19 Saqlain 29.93
20 Gibbs 29.09

Away averages would probably be more helpful..

 

[trundler]

Don't think Tiger was especially condition reliant, I mean. Relative to other great spinners. The other spinners of his time feasted heavily on SA. O'Reilly has a great record against England, better than Grimmett. Guy troubled Hammond and even Bradman to a great extent. Pitches may have been more helpful generally but O'Reilly succeeded even when not, as my example pointed out. Both Warne and Murali got a royal thrashing by Lara and Sachin from time to time but Tiger had more success against the best bats.

 

[trundler]

Also glad we have avoided the chucker vs druggie debate for the umpteenth time with dignity. Kudos CW.

 

[weldone]

1. Muttiah Muralitharan
2. Bill O’Reilly
3. Shane Warne
4. Ravi Ashwin
5. Clarrie Grimmett
6. Anil Kumble
7. Rangana Herath
8. Hugh Tayfield
9. Hedley Verity
10. Richie Benaud
11. Bishan Bedi
12. Wilfred Rhodes
13. Jim Laker
14. Subhash Gupte
15. Chandrasekhar
16. Lance Gibbs
17. Erapalli Prasanna
18. Derek Underwood
19. Johnny Briggs
20. Yasir Shah

 

[Bolo]

Don't think Tiger was especially condition reliant, I mean. Relative to other great spinners. The other spinners of his time feasted heavily on SA. O'Reilly has a great record against England, better than Grimmett. Guy troubled Hammond and even Bradman to a great extent. Pitches may have been more helpful generally but O'Reilly succeeded even when not, as my example pointed out. Both Lara and Murali got a royal thrashing by Lara rand Sachin from time to time but Tiger had more success against the best bats.

Not something I know enough about to make a call on. Modern pitches haven't been kind to quicker spinners, but he might have been an exception, or adapted particularly well. No problem with ranking him 1, but there's a lot of guesswork in comparison by era.

 

[Engle]

01- S.Warne
02- Murali M.
03- Abdul Qadir
04- B.O'Reilly
05- C.Grimmett
06- H.Verity
07- D.Underwood
08- L.Gibbs
09- A.Kumble
10- J.Laker
11- B.Bosanquet
12- B.Bedi
13- H.Tayfield
14- R.Herath
15- E.Prasanna
16- S.MacGill
17- B.Chandrasekhar
18- R.Benaud
19- Saqlain Mushtaq
20- C.Blythe

 

[AndrewB]

1. Muttiah Muralitharan
2. Shane Warne
3. Bill O'Reilly
4. Jim Laker
5. Hedley Verity
6. Hugh Tayfield
7. Subhash Gupte
8. Derek Underwood
9. Clarrie Grimmett
10. Wilfred Rhodes
11. Bishen Bedi
12. Bhagwat Chandrasekhar
13. Lance Gibbs
14. Anil Kumble
15. Johnny Wardle
16. Abdul Qadir
17. Ravichandran Ashwin
18. Richie Benaud
19. Erapalli Prasanna
20. Bert Vogler

 

[Red]

O'Reilly
Warne
Laker
Trumble
Verity
Grimmett
Benaud
Gibbs
Underwood
Tayfield
Swann
Wardle
Bedi
Kumble
McGill
Rhodes
Briggs
Murali
Ironmonger
Qasim

I find it odd that some people have put Murali really low on their list. Is it something to do with his action? If it is, why wouldn't you leave him off entirely on principle?

If you have no problem with his action, surely he is top 5?