• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

Weak Ends to A career

OverratedSanity

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Problem is people want it all both ways, try to invent contrived logic to discredit Australian batsmen's stats but not give corresponding credit to their bowlers. I'm not saying this is what Bolo is doing but I've seen it done here before and it's funny to see the lengths people will go to to twist things in their mind.
I have literally never seen this.

People do this for subcontinent players all the time , especially Sri Lankans.

Sanga scores double hundred at home: Lol flat road
Murali gets 5fer at home: Asian rank turner
 

vcs

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Probably happens to some extent with every team when they put together a dominant run at home.
 

the big bambino

International Captain
If someone really wants to decide that Australian batsmen aren't as good as their stats suggest because "Australian pitches are flat" is fine by me. As long as they accept the reverse for bowlers. Which would mean that McGrath, Gillespie, Warne etc's stats should be even better than they are and by this logic makes them all undisputed ATG bowlers with virtually no peer.

They'd also have to give Australian batsmen more credit for playing away than other country's batsmen get, if they insist that Australian pitches are so foreign to everyone else.

Problem is people want it all both ways, try to invent contrived logic to discredit Australian batsmen's stats but not give corresponding credit to their bowlers. I'm not saying this is what Bolo is doing but I've seen it done here before and it's funny to see the lengths people will go to to twist things in their mind.

Personally I think it's all bs and the stats for both batting and bowling are about where they should be in comparison with the rest of the world (with the exception of stats in Australia since 2014-15 since they genuinely have been lifeless wickets other than the Adelaide Day/Night Tests).
I suspect in cricket the more generalised the stats the less they can be relied on to base a conclusion. The entire argument that ponting’s average is inflated by Australian roads for the “last 25 years” is one such misleading conclusion.
 

OverratedSanity

Request Your Custom Title Now!
You’ve not only seen it but liked the posts stating it.
Are you talking about these posts:

Nah, the view of OS bats being legend for scoring in AUS is dated as well. The pitches are mostly flat for everyone. AUS are a much stronger bowling unit than a batting one, and they know how to bowl to home conditions, so OS bats get credit for that, and OS bats deserve a bit of sympathy in conditions in any country that are alien to them, which AUS is for a lot of countries.
AUS pitches favour batmen.
Visiting batmen to any country are at a disadvantage because they are not used to conditions while the bowlers are.
Additionally visiting batmen to AUS are at a disadvantage relative to other countries because AUS almost always has good bowlers. This point plus the previous account for why visiting batting averages are not great. AUS batsmen are typically worse than their stats suggest because of pitch conditions while their bowlers are typically better.
Seems clear to me he's giving Aus bowlers credit for bowling well on their home pitches which are flat.

Don't know why you're constantly trying to put words in his mouth and trying to imply that he said Australian bowlers aren't great. He's saying the exact opposite.
 

the big bambino

International Captain
Yes. The bit about Aus batsmen being worse than their stats bcos of home conditions. The sort of thing that grinds your teeth when said about subcon players.

And talking of putting words in mouths I’m not sure I implied that at all. If anything I criticised his reliance on that opinion in attempting to fortify an argument that Aus bats are beneficiaries of conditions that others seem to fail.
 
Last edited:

TheJediBrah

Request Your Custom Title Now!
I have literally never seen this.

People do this for subcontinent players all the time , especially Sri Lankans.

Sanga scores double hundred at home: Lol flat road
Murali gets 5fer at home: Asian rank turner
I've seen it several times. The logic is usually something along the lines "Australian bowlers are used to bowling on the roads/suited to bowling roads and are good at it so it doesn't disadvantage them to have to bowl on roads"

I suspect in cricket the more generalised the stats the less they can be relied on to base a conclusion. The entire argument that ponting’s average is inflated by Australian roads for the “last 25 years” is one such misleading conclusion.
I didn't look back far enough to see anyone saying that, but lol yeah, that would be an absurd conclusion to reach

If Ponting's stats are inflated then does that make Warne and McGrath the Bradmans (Bradmen?) of bowling?
 
Last edited:

cnerd123

likes this
The problem is defining any batting-friendly track as being 'flat' or a 'road' or anything else so simplistic.

Australian pitches are traditionally hard. The ball carries through at a good pace. If you bowl with a lot of pace, it gives the batsman a small window of time to pick and execute their shot. If they pull it off, there are runs galore. But it requires a batsman to pick their shot early and follow through with it. Good eye, good reflexes, get into the stroke quickly, play with confidence. That's what Australian batsmen do. And the Australian bowlers? They bowl with high pace, and they understand how to manipulate the lengths they bowl at to create that brief moment of doubt in the batsman's mind, to induce the false stroke and get the edge. Aussie spinners put a lot of overspin on the ball, to extract dip, drift and bounce. They use more flight to get the batsmen using their feet, rather than give them pace to work with. If there is absolutely no swing, seam or spin on offer, this tends to remain the defining characteristic of Aussie pitches.

Subcontinental pitches are slower. Softer. The ball dies a bit after it hits the dirt. As a bowler, bowling pace is futile. It just sits up nicely and lets the batsman hit it, because the lack of pace in the wicket mean a batsman can just wait and wait and wait and then hit the ball as soon is it's there to hit. Watch the ball, pick your shot at the last possible movement, generate power with bat speed and wrists.So, as a bowler, you're doing one of two things - either you're looking to trick a batsman into committing to a shot early - via changes in pace and flight - or you're looking to extract movement to beat the batsman - spin, seam, late swing. The idea seamer for Indian conditions knows hows to cut, swing and reverse swing the ball, and tends to sacrifice pace for the ability to bowl long, accurate spells. A spinner tends to bowl a lot of side spin, and a lot quicker through the air, trying to force a batsman to play them off the backfoot. A Subcontinental batsman is always looking to get on the front foot to score, to shift their weight forward to generate the power for their strokes. if there is nothing else on offer, this is the defining characteristic of Subcontinental wickets.



So now, what happens when a fast-trigger, hard-handed, flat footed Australian batsman faces Subcontinental bowlers on a Subcontinental pitch? What happens if he faces those same medium pacers and spinners on a hard Australian deck? What happens when the Subcontinental batsman takes his soft hands, fast feet and supple wrists against pure pace and loopy spin at home? What about when he faces those same bowler on a pitch with pace and carry? We've seen all this go down, we know what happens, we recognise and understand it.


And that's my point really. A 'flat pitch' is not the same in Australia as it is in the Subcontinent. There are still substantial differences between those surfaces. 'Home Track Bully' is a much better term for all that - don't need to complicate things by saying 'flat tracks in Australia are better for Australian bowlers and batsmen than they are for tourists". That's still true but sounds messy. Every play thrives at home in conditions they're familiar with. Conditions are different everywhere. Nothing wrong by suggesting a team's players -batsmen and bowlers- do better at home than touring players.
 

Daemon

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Almost all the top batsmen of today score waaaayyy more runs at home than away these days. Australians seem to have the biggest disparity for recent players though. Was it always the case?

Kohli 45/63
Smith 53/77
KW 45/55
Root 58/44
Warner 36/60
Azhar 40/54
 

TheJediBrah

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Almost all the top batsmen of today score waaaayyy more runs at home than away these days. Australians seem to have the biggest disparity for recent players though. Was it always the case?

Kohli 45/63
Smith 53/77
KW 45/55
Root 58/44
Warner 36/60
Azhar 40/54
More so these days IMO. Someone mentioned earlier about Aus batting conditions being so different to the rest of the world so maybe that has something to do with it? Especially these days with so much Test cricket being played in Asia, and West Indies wickets almost resembling Asian wickets over the last decade more than anything else.

It shows why the suggestion that Ponting having such a higher home average than away average means that he "wasn't that good because Australia has flat pitches" is so dumb. He was just better at playing on Australian pitches. That's it.
 

Bolo

State Captain
Almost all the top batsmen of today score waaaayyy more runs at home than away these days. Australians seem to have the biggest disparity for recent players though. Was it always the case?

Kohli 45/63
Smith 53/77
KW 45/55
Root 58/44
Warner 36/60
Azhar 40/54

It is a recent trend. Aus was a tough place to bat, but pitches have been soft this century.

Border 57/46
Waugh 56/48
Ponting 46/57
Hayden, Clarke, Hussey, Warner +-40 +-60

Cook is the same home and away. Add him to Root and England doesn't look the same (IDK anyone else's stats)
All the recent top RSA players are either about the same home/away or better away.
 
Last edited:

Bolo

State Captain
If someone really wants to decide that Australian batsmen aren't as good as their stats suggest because "Australian pitches are flat" is fine by me. As long as they accept the reverse for bowlers. Which would mean that McGrath, Gillespie, Warne etc's stats should be even better than they are and by this logic makes them all undisputed ATG bowlers with virtually no peer.

They'd also have to give Australian batsmen more credit for playing away than other country's batsmen get, if they insist that Australian pitches are so foreign to everyone else.

Problem is people want it all both ways, try to invent contrived logic to discredit Australian batsmen's stats but not give corresponding credit to their bowlers. I'm not saying this is what Bolo is doing but I've seen it done here before and it's funny to see the lengths people will go to to twist things in their mind.

Personally I think it's all bs and the stats for both batting and bowling are about where they should be in comparison with the rest of the world (with the exception of stats in Australia since 2014-15 since they genuinely have been lifeless wickets other than the Adelaide Day/Night Tests).
Credit is given by virtually everyone to Warne and McGrath for being better than their stats. Warne is streets behind Murali statistically but debate exists about who is better. Similarly (but less clearly) Mcgrath compared to Marshall or Steyn. Sensible debate merely exists about the extent to which it should happen.

This credit away from home situation exists for everyone. My train of thought did not begin with the fact that there is a problem with pontings stats because AUS pitches are roads, but rather with the fact that he's a bit of a home track bully, and I will always rate performances in a variety of conditions ahead of just one. ***** covered this nicely, so I'll defer to his post.

Because there is a notable difference in his home away averages, I considered that he might be a ftb on top of being a htb. The numbers from the previous posts support this.

Most take the stats of all the 2000s batting bullies with a pinch of salt because of conditions (and lack of bowlers tbf). I think it's sensible to do this based on which country they come from as well.
 

trundler

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Credit is given by virtually everyone to Warne and McGrath for being better than their stats. Warne is streets behind Murali statistically but debate exists about who is better. Similarly (but less clearly) Mcgrath compared to Marshall or Steyn. Sensible debate merely exists about the extent to which it should happen.

This credit away from home situation exists for everyone. My train of thought did not begin with the fact that there is a problem with pontings stats because AUS pitches are roads, but rather with the fact that he's a bit of a home track bully, and I will always rate performances in a variety of conditions ahead of just one. ***** covered this nicely, so I'll defer to his post.

Because there is a notable difference in his home away averages, I considered that he might be a ftb on top of being a htb. The numbers from the previous posts support this.

Most take the stats of all the 2000s batting bullies with a pinch of salt because of conditions (and lack of bowlers tbf). I think it's sensible to do this based on which country they come from as well.
All that's fine but Mcgrath already has impeccable stats tho.
 

Bolo

State Captain
All that's fine but Mcgrath already has impeccable stats tho.
He has beastly numbers. But he is still (deservedly) ranked better than those numbers. There are a bunch of people that you could rank ahead of him on stats depending on what you prioritised. Trueman and Marshall that I can think of have him beat on all of SR, WPM, and average. Maybe some others as well, or at least others that beat him on 2/3. But you will struggle to find anyone rating a bunch of others above him as a bowler- as great as his stats are, he is rated above them.
 

Slifer

International Captain
Almost all the top batsmen of today score waaaayyy more runs at home than away these days. Australians seem to have the biggest disparity for recent players though. Was it always the case?

Kohli 45/63
Smith 53/77
KW 45/55
Root 58/44
Warner 36/60
Azhar 40/54
Sorry to nitpick but I think Joe Root's numbers are a bit off...
 

the big bambino

International Captain
If you reread the middle paragraph you'll find I've covered this. I don't feel like going in circles anymore.
It becomes circular when you say things like "reread the middle paragraph". I did and responded. So ... re read my subsequent post! Circular isn't it; and a little patronising you sense?

There's something I'd like to expand on though because it is adding something new to the conversation.

"This is often a claim made for subcontinental players, but should be recognised for AUS as well now.

Ignoring Pakistanis because home/away is problematic (and because I'm less familiar with them), the best Asian bats of recent times were Dravid, Tendulkar, and Sanga. All of these guys averaged pretty much the same home and away. This is rare and should be appreciated. There have also been a number of lesser batmen who had reasonably comparable averages, like Jayawardene, Sehwag, Samaweera who bullied home or Asia, averaging something like 50% more at home. I think some people conflate the two groups (as well as the lesser bats who tend to fail catastrophically overseas) fail to give due credit to the first group as a result. I know I've been guilty of this reductivism in the past.

In contrast to Asia is AUS, where all the best bats since Ponting average something like 50% more home than away. The reductivism seems to be a lot more appropriate in their case. Sehwag gets more flak for only performing on one continent than AUS bats do for only performing in one country, which is really silly.
Lets take Sanga as an example. He averaged 60 at home. Don't get me wrong; I don't have an issue - with Jaya, Sehwag or Sama either. But if you are comparing him favourably to Ponting based on the discrepancy btwn their home/away stats you are being misled by that metric. Ponting actually has the higher average in 6/10 away venues. Sanga only 4. Ponting averages lower than 40 in 2 away locations. Sanga 3. I suspect Sanga's overall away stats are better bcos he proportionately played more often in his favourite locations than Ponting. But there is another reason. Ponting averaged 50 away up to the end of 2009. It is a well known and remarked fact that he lost his mojo subsequently. A fact even admitted by Ponting. Thereafter he averaged 29 away which creates the misleading impression there is a discrepancy in his effectiveness away as opposed to home. Which misleads you into concluding his average is padded by favourable home conditions.

I'd hope no one would be desperate enough to single out Ponting's home series v India in 10/11 as a counter. After all the contention is that he has benefitted throughout his career when we can see that through the bulk of it there was little difference btwn his home/away stats.

In reference to the bolded above. Home/away contests are a staple of most sports. There really isn't a good reason to single out any one player for a circumstance common to everyone. Generally players tend to perform better at home. The better players like Ponting and Sanga can adapt to foreign conditions. Others like Usman, and to a lesser extent Mahela, are simply more adept in handling the peculiar conditions they experience in their home countries. Which doesn't necessarily mean their home tracks are roads. A circumstance borne out when Usman tried but failed in Sri Lanka and Mahela struggled here (and outside of Asia generally).
 

Bolo

State Captain
It becomes circular when you say things like "reread the middle paragraph". I did and responded. So ... re read my subsequent post! Circular isn't it; and a little patronising you sense?



Lets take Sanga as an example. He averaged 60 at home. Don't get me wrong; I don't have an issue - with Jaya, Sehwag or Sama either. But if you are comparing him favourably to Ponting based on the discrepancy btwn their home/away stats you are being misled by that metric. Ponting actually has the higher average in 6/10 away venues. Sanga only 4. Ponting averages lower than 40 in 2 away locations. Sanga 3. I suspect Sanga's overall away stats are better bcos he proportionately played more often in his favourite locations than Ponting. But there is another reason. Ponting averaged 50 away up to the end of 2009. It is a well known and remarked fact that he lost his mojo subsequently. A fact even admitted by Ponting. Thereafter he averaged 29 away which creates the misleading impression there is a discrepancy in his effectiveness away as opposed to home. Which misleads you into concluding his average is padded by favourable home conditions.

I'd hope no one would be desperate enough to single out Ponting's home series v India in 10/11 as a counter. After all the contention is that he has benefitted throughout his career when we can see that through the bulk of it there was little difference btwn his home/away stats.

In reference to the bolded above. Home/away contests are a staple of most sports. There really isn't a good reason to single out any one player for a circumstance common to everyone. Generally players tend to perform better at home. The better players like Ponting and Sanga can adapt to foreign conditions. Others like Usman, and to a lesser extent Mahela, are simply more adept in handling the peculiar conditions they experience in their home countries. Which doesn't necessarily mean their home tracks are roads. A circumstance borne out when Usman tried but failed in Sri Lanka and Mahela struggled here (and outside of Asia generally).
It's not really possible to single out individual away countries for performances any more. Teams are playing in too many venues. Sanga played in 11 countries, and only played more than 10 tests in two of them. Ponting played either one or two tests in 4 different countries. I'm not going to mark him down for not managing to average 40 in Zim given the fact that he only had one innings. I don't even mark him down too much for India, despite the fact that he played a lot there.

I tend to agree with your groups of countries idea. Ponting did well enough in the rest of Asia to make his India failing not so serious in this type of analysis. A lot of SC bats fall short on this. But not Sanga. He's very balanced if you look at successes and failures in groups of countries with similar pitches. Ponting is too, but he's just consistently not as good in this regard.

To try and group like this, with the possible exception of in Asia and outside Asia becomes very contrived though. Home away is a much simpler way to look at things, because it is universal.

Every player has peaks and troughs. Ponting was a bit more extreme than most. But even for his peak (99-2006) he only averaged about the same away as Sanga did over an entire career, and Sanga had a monster peak himself. Ponting averaged 74 home in the period, so the discrepancy between home and away actually increases when examining his peak.

Pontings away average is good. I don't class him as a proper HTB or FTB as I would for a number of subsequent AUS bats. But he comes up short in comparison with just about any of his great contemporaries in this regard.
 

Bolo

State Captain
My top 8 bats of the last 30 years are Tendulkar, Lara, Waugh, Ponting, Dravid, Sanga, Kallis, AB

AB and Waugh average substantially more away. Both had tough home conditions (not for the whole of Waugh's career, but enough).

Lara and Ponting average substantially more at home than away. Both benefitted from the softening of home pitches as their home countries moved from lively to flat over their careers.

Everyone else is pretty similar home/away. Everyone other than Lara (48) and Ponting (46) averages 53-56 away.
 

mr_mister

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Steve Smith though

He's now played more tests than Bradmam so we can hardly say his career hasn't been long enough
 

trundler

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Smith will be back and hungrier than ever. Australia aren't going to let go a batsman like him. It's not like they have principles, it was reactionary bs. It'll blow over like Warne's drug thing.
 

Top