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Holding, Lillee and Marshall - The greatest

trundler

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I'm pretty sure everyone here knows about all 3 and I fail to see the purpose of the thread since it's not posted as a question.
 

bagapath

International Captain
Cricket fans like us who keep talking about players from the past and compare their performances and analyse their stas to the last decimal point possible agree on one thing. From, lets say, 1975 - the year of the first World Cup onwards we have had a number of fast bowling greats who could work in many delightful combos to make up winning bowling attacks.

For example, a three men fast bowling attack can be formed with any of Lillee, Roberts, Hadlee, Holding, Garner, Marshall, Walsh, Akram, Waqar, Ambrose, Donald, McGrath, Bishop, S.Pollock and Steyn. We can argue about the merits and demerits of having one combo over the other forever; but essentially any three of these guys could bowl out any batting line up on any surface most of the time.

The fourth pace bowler could be a surprise/ shock bowler like Thomson, Akhthar, M. Johnson or an all-rounder like Imran, Botham, Kapil or Kallis depending on the team's composition. Even the hugely talented, but unfortunately short changed by bad health, Bond and Ryan Harris can fill in this role.

The spinner is usually chosen from the Warne - Murali plane first and then from the Chandra, Bedi, Underwood, Qadir, Kumble, Saqlain platter.

Top five combos in my order of preference would be

Imran
Hadlee
Marshall
Warne
Lillee

Botham
Akram
Ambrose
Murali
McGrath

Kallis
Steyn
Garner
Waqar
Chandra

S.Pollock
Holding
Thomson
Donald
Bedi

M. Johnson
Roberts
Bishop
Underwood
Walsh
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
OReilly and Grimmett too early for your tastes Baga?
 

trundler

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I don't believe in this Warne and Murali being a step above every other spinner when they've failed against the best players of spin of their day. If they cant handle Laxman and Sidhu, they wouldn't be troubling Bradman and Sobers. Both goth thrashed by Lara as well. Just looks like recency bias. Recently, the idea of having O'Reilly or Laker ahead of Warne/Murali has grown on me. Unfortunately, head to head stats for Laker and Harvey, for example would be incredibly difficult to dig up, if not impossible, so there's no certainty on whether they too failed when it mattered. O'Reilly struggled against lefties too, btw.

We have such high-standards for fast-bowlers. Walsh and Pollock are a clearly a tier below Ambrose and Donald because they struggled in Australia. Murali did as well, and he was poor in India along with Warne. Warne and Murali would most likely be the weak link in an ATG context. Or you could get a Gibbs to perform the containing role.
 

Borges

International Regular
An Englishman and/or a West Indian? Blasphemy!
The Australian Miyagi and the Sri Lankan Miyagi are finally going to agree on one thing: you must be burnt alive at the stake.
 

Mr Miyagi

Banned
An Englishman and/or a West Indian? Blasphemy!
The Australian Miyagi and the Sri Lankan Miyagi are finally going to agree on one thing: you must be burnt alive at the stake.
Who are all these imitation Miyagi's? I'll meet them at their cobra kai dojo and sort this out.
 

Bolo

State Captain
Cricket fans like us who keep talking about players from the past and compare their performances and analyse their stas to the last decimal point possible agree on one thing. From, lets say, 1975 - the year of the first World Cup onwards we have had a number of fast bowling greats who could work in many delightful combos to make up winning bowling attacks.

For example, a three men fast bowling attack can be formed with any of Lillee, Roberts, Hadlee, Holding, Garner, Marshall, Walsh, Akram, Waqar, Ambrose, Donald, McGrath, Bishop, S.Pollock and Steyn. We can argue about the merits and demerits of having one combo over the other forever; but essentially any three of these guys could bowl out any batting line up on any surface most of the time.

The fourth pace bowler could be a surprise/ shock bowler like Thomson, Akhthar, M. Johnson or an all-rounder like Imran, Botham, Kapil or Kallis depending on the team's composition. Even the hugely talented, but unfortunately short changed by bad health, Bond and Ryan Harris can fill in this role.

The spinner is usually chosen from the Warne - Murali plane first and then from the Chandra, Bedi, Underwood, Qadir, Kumble, Saqlain platter.

Top five combos in my order of preference would be

Imran
Hadlee
Marshall
Warne
Lillee

Botham
Akram
Ambrose
Murali
McGrath

Kallis
Steyn
Garner
Waqar
Chandra

S.Pollock
Holding
Thomson
Donald
Bedi

M. Johnson
Roberts
Bishop
Underwood
Walsh
Nice balance in those attacks. You run some long tails though besides the 1st team. Philander, Kapil, Shakib would probably all find spots in mine to help with this.
 

vcs

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I don't believe in this Warne and Murali being a step above every other spinner when they've failed against the best players of spin of their day. If they cant handle Laxman and Sidhu, they wouldn't be troubling Bradman and Sobers. Both goth thrashed by Lara as well. Just looks like recency bias. Recently, the idea of having O'Reilly or Laker ahead of Warne/Murali has grown on me. Unfortunately, head to head stats for Laker and Harvey, for example would be incredibly difficult to dig up, if not impossible, so there's no certainty on whether they too failed when it mattered. O'Reilly struggled against lefties too, btw.

We have such high-standards for fast-bowlers. Walsh and Pollock are a clearly a tier below Ambrose and Donald because they struggled in Australia. Murali did as well, and he was poor in India along with Warne. Warne and Murali would most likely be the weak link in an ATG context. Or you could get a Gibbs to perform the containing role.
Someone else said it : spinners are inherently downhill skiiers, to an extent. Can't expect Murali to run through Australia (in Australia especially) when he comes in to bowl at 1-100 or so every time. Same applies when he toured India, and he did bowl out India at home a few times. Warne has less of an excuse for flopping in India, but India somehow managed to play him exceptionally well. I'd put that down as an anomaly.

Quicks should find it easier to at least contain the scoring and pick up 2-70 type figures even when conditions are unsuitable for them.
 

trundler

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Someone else said it : spinners are inherently downhill skiiers, to an extent. Can't expect Murali to run through Australia (in Australia especially) when he comes in to bowl at 1-100 or so every time. Same applies when he toured India, and he did bowl out India at home a few times. Warne has less of an excuse for flopping in India, but India somehow managed to play him exceptionally well. I'd put that down as an anomaly.

Quicks should find it easier to at least contain the scoring and pick up 2-70 type figures even when conditions are unsuitable for them.
Obviously, there should be different standards for both but failing against quality players of spin should be a big, big hole in their records.
 

Bolo

State Captain
Someone else said it : spinners are inherently downhill skiiers, to an extent. Can't expect Murali to run through Australia (in Australia especially) when he comes in to bowl at 1-100 or so every time
Isn't this the opposite of downhill skiing?

Obviously, there should be different standards for both but failing against quality players of spin should be a big, big hole in their records.
Murali did okish on this measure. 36 vs AUS and 33 vs India. Not great, but good number of wickets and we expect spinners to average a bit more than the quicks. It was away vs the best teams that he did badly. Spinners are inherently more reliant on conditions than the best quicks. When they run into a combination of the best players of spin and conditions that don't suit I think they are all in trouble.
 

ankitj

Hall of Fame Member
Murali has 7 fivers and 2 ten-fers against India. Who drilled into people's head that he hasn't been good against India? Dismissed Ganguly 9 times, Tendulkar 8 and Dravid 6.
 
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cnerd123

likes this
Obviously, there should be different standards for both but failing against quality players of spin should be a big, big hole in their records.
Did they fail against the players, or did they fail in certain conditions? I've seen both their shortcomings as the latter, as I tried to explain in the other thread.
 

trundler

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To compensate for that, Murali failed in Australia. I'm just saying there's no Warne and Murali plane above all others.
 

ankitj

Hall of Fame Member
To compensate for that, Murali failed in Australia. I'm just saying there's no Warne and Murali plane above all others.
There clearly is unless we go back all the way to O'Reilly and Grimmet before the great War. Harbhajan, Saqlain, Kumble, Vettori, Swann etc. are a level lower. Ashwin/Jadeja/Yasir are yet to finish their careers.
 

TheJediBrah

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Isn't this the opposite of downhill skiing?
That's his point

Murali has 7 fivers and 2 ten-fers against India. Who drilled into people's head that he hasn't been good against India? Dismissed Ganguly 9 times, Tendulkar 8 and Dravid 6.
I think it was because he averages over 10 runs more against them than his career average (33 someone said).

I don't know if I'd consider number of 5 or 10-fors or dismissals of other long-term players that relevant really. Of course they're going to be high when you've taken 800 wickets over 130+ Tests. A 5-40 isn't the same as a 5-150.
 

ankitj

Hall of Fame Member
It ain't high for Warne.

Overall numbers don't look attractive relatively, I agree but overall numbers don't tell the whole story. Murali has put India into trouble enough number of times. Has won 2 MoM awards against India. Warne on the other hand never put India into a spot of bother even once, never came close to winning a MoM. It's a no contest on who the better bowler against India was.
 
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stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Yep, Murali did do better vs India.

But then Australia never prepared wickets to suit Warne. They prepared fast, bouncy wickets as they have always done. Sri Lanka were notorious for preparing bunsens for Murali to run through sides on. Murali's average in India is 45 vs Warne's 43. The fact of the matter is that both bowlers failed in India. Warne also failed at home vs India. Unfortunately for Warne he never really faced India at home while he was in his prime. He debuted against India in 93 and famously did quite poorly. He faced them again at home in 99/00 which was smack bang in the middle of his injury-induced dry spell and then never faced them at home again due to his suspension. It's a shame that India didn't tour in 97 or in 2006 when he was in the middle of one of his peaks.

Even then, Warne took 6 top order wickets in the first test in 99 and got Tendulkar in the second test. The third test blew out his stats against them taking a combined total of 0/82 (25) while McGrath and Lee blew India away.

Warne's only series against India when he was at his peak was the 04 series when he took 14 wickets in 3 tests at an average of 30. Not world beating but definitely solid.

The main difference between Warne's record and Murali's record against India is the home tests and Warne's home record against India was 5 test, two of which were the first two of his career, before he was ready and the next three of which were while he was recovering from his shoulder reconstruction. Getting banned in 03 was the worst thing for those of us who wanted to see Warne face India at home when he was in form.
 

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