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Thread: Wisden's Cricketers of the Century

  1. #916
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by subshakerz View Post
    My point was that Warne's arrival didn't somehow instantly inspire a new generation of spinners to appear on the international stage, especially since the only noteworthy leg spinners of the decade had appeared before him. What he did do was make leg spin attractive and appealing after a long time, but that's different from saying he singlehandely saved leg spin from nonexistence.
    Oh, I certainly don't think he did that, as I said above, that's nonsense. No-one was ever going to do that anyway, even if it did "need" doing.

    But there's no doubt that, Abdul Qadir aside, Warne was the first "standard" wristspinner of any note to emerge (ie, start performing, rather than simply be picked - plenty of rubbish wristspinners had played for Australia in the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s) for a long while - he emerged before Mushtaq Ahmed, and who knows, had he not done so maybe Mushtaq would not even have had the glory days he had. Murali emerged soon after them, and wristspin had its most vibrant days since the times of Grimmett and O'Reilly. And probably its most vibrant days for a long time to come, too. I'll be truly amazed if there are any Warne-calibre wristspinners again any time soon. And certainly I don't see there being another Murali, possibly ever, and bowlers like Kumble are very rare too.
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  2. #917
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    That post would be fine, if only it had "... in Australia" tacked on the end.

    No perception of worldwide reality.
    Actually, it would be true for most places bar the sub-continent. I agree that he never revived anything there, but elsewhere he certainly did.
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  3. #918
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Well he certainly hasn't revived anything in England, South Africa, West Indies or New Zealand, because there've never been any wristspinners of much note from said countries ITFP, at least since the 1910s and 1920s (and in New Zealand and West Indies' case never). To be revived, something has to have died; and to have died, something has to have existed. South Africa haven't had wristspinners since Schwartz, Vogler and Faulkner; England's only wristspinners of note were Barnes and Freeman who had very short Test careers anyway. All a long, long time ago.
    Last edited by Richard; 13-02-2008 at 01:22 PM.

  4. #919
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Oh, I certainly don't think he did that, as I said above, that's nonsense. No-one was ever going to do that anyway, even if it did "need" doing.

    But there's no doubt that, Abdul Qadir aside, Warne was the first "standard" wristspinner of any note to emerge (ie, start performing, rather than simply be picked - plenty of rubbish wristspinners had played for Australia in the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s) for a long while - he emerged before Mushtaq Ahmed, and who knows, had he not done so maybe Mushtaq would not even have had the glory days he had. Murali emerged soon after them, and wristspin had its most vibrant days since the times of Grimmett and O'Reilly. And probably its most vibrant days for a long time to come, too. I'll be truly amazed if there are any Warne-calibre wristspinners again any time soon. And certainly I don't see there being another Murali, possibly ever, and bowlers like Kumble are very rare too.
    Sad truth. In many ways, the future of spin bowling looks even worse than fast bowling. At least we have a few potential pace stars, but Kaneria? Panesar? Harbajan? Can't expect much from them.


  5. #920
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    As I said in this thread, for me, once pitches became covered, spin was always going to become the preserve of the exceptional. The exceptional wristspinners would remain exceptional, but the good fingerspinners would become far less effective.

    It's not neccessarily a bad thing; matters were exactly the same for much of the 1970s and 1980s, and the early-1990s too. We can't expect spin to be a major force if we have covered wickets. Seam, though, has always been something the outstanding can purvey well in all conditions.

  6. #921
    International Coach social's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    That post would be fine, if only it had "... in Australia" tacked on the end.

    No perception of worldwide reality.
    Totally wrong - you werent around at the time.

  7. #922
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    Quote Originally Posted by bond21 View Post
    Leg Spin was dead until Warne came onto the scene.

    Its dying again though....noone bowls leg spin.
    Abdul Qadir was bowling left arm finger spin!
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  8. #923
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    Quote Originally Posted by Migara View Post
    Abdul Qadir was bowling left arm finger spin!
    He retired a few years before Warne came onto the scene and wasnt an automatic choice for quite a few years before that.

    I played cricket in Australia, England, New Zealand, West Indies and the sub-continent during the 80s, and in virtually every country, kids wanted to bowl fast and captains had little time for encouraging spinners unless they were already very good. This was only natural because a substantial proportion of the cricketing heroes were fast bowlers and they dominated the game at the time.

    Warne's emergence went a long way to changing that in many places

  9. #924
    International 12th Man neville cardus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    England's only wristspinners of note were Barnes and Freeman who had very short Test careers anyway. All a long, long time ago.
    Barnes would be highly unimpressed at being dubbed a mere leg-spinner. I, certainly, have always taken him for a fast-medium man with unprecedented and since-unsurpassed variations.

    Even more so than Kumble (whose cause you championed earlier), Barnes was "one of a kind". There has never been anyone quite like him; Kumble, on the other hand, had O'Reilly and Shahid Afridi.

    If you are looking for another high-class English leggie to go with Tich, look no further than Peebles.
    Last edited by neville cardus; 14-02-2008 at 07:30 AM.
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  10. #925
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Oh, Barnes was even more one-of-a-kind than Murali or Kumble, beyond all question. I've always thought of him as more of a fast wristspinner than anything else, though, and if he must be classified I've always thought wristspin would be the best.

    I must say, though, regarding Peebles, I've never quite seen what the fuss (not that there is a great deal) is about. Could someone explain? Had always thought that if England had a wristspinner of note after Freeman, it was Wright.

    However, I imagine Kumble would be even less impressed than Barnes to see Shahid Afridi compared to him. O'Reilly, very possibly, but Afridi shares speed and that is it. None of Kumble's skill.

  11. #926
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by social View Post
    Totally wrong - you werent around at the time.
    No, I wasn't, and I don't need to be either. There was never, ever a time in India where more concerned with seam than spin, even despite Kapil Dev and a load of average spinners.

    And the number of high-calibre spinners in Pakistan in the late-1970s and 1980s suggests there was never a time there either.

    West Indies and England haven't produced high-class spinners since the 1960s (when wickets were covered), New Zealand never have, and South Africa haven't since the 1950s (when wickets were coverered). Warne hasn't changed so much as a thing in any of these countries.

    He might have increased interest in Australia, but as the situation post-retirement shows, that increase in interest won't translate to a multitude of good spinners.

  12. #927
    International 12th Man neville cardus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Oh, Barnes was even more one-of-a-kind than Murali or Kumble, beyond all question. I've always thought of him as more of a fast wristspinner than anything else, though, and if he must be classified I've always thought wristspin would be the best.
    It is an interesting analysis, completely different to that which I made ages ago, and have since upheld ever since. My staunch belief that Sydney Francis Barnes's bowling was of the fast-medium variety is based, among other things, on my knowing of very few leggies with long run-ups and off-breaks.

    You are not alone, though, in believing him closer to an O'Reillyesque leggie than a McGrathesque seamer, and certainly not the first with whom I have quarrelled about it -- I usually employ the rationale that my co-arguer dubs Barnes a leggie only due to the frequent comparisons made between him and Tiger --, so perhaps it is I who have it wrong. I'll do a little digging.

    I must say, though, regarding Peebles, I've never quite seen what the fuss (not that there is a great deal) is about.
    His record, perhaps? There is also the formidably high regard in which one A.A. Mailey held him.

    However, I imagine Kumble would be even less impressed than Barnes to see Shahid Afridi compared to him. O'Reilly, very possibly, but Afridi shares speed and that is it. None of Kumble's skill.
    Of course not. I was referring to style rather than skill.
    Last edited by neville cardus; 15-02-2008 at 07:14 AM.

  13. #928
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    No, I wasn't, and I don't need to be either. There was never, ever a time in India where more concerned with seam than spin, even despite Kapil Dev and a load of average spinners.

    And the number of high-calibre spinners in Pakistan in the late-1970s and 1980s suggests there was never a time there either.

    West Indies and England haven't produced high-class spinners since the 1960s (when wickets were covered), New Zealand never have, and South Africa haven't since the 1950s (when wickets were coverered). Warne hasn't changed so much as a thing in any of these countries.

    He might have increased interest in Australia, but as the situation post-retirement shows, that increase in interest won't translate to a multitude of good spinners.
    You're totally missing the point - his emergence didnt translate into the sudden of appearance of a multitude of good spinners (basically because it's hard to do) but it dramatically increased interest in the skill worldwide

  14. #929
    Hall of Fame Member Goughy's Avatar
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    From a coaching POV there is certainly a big jump in the number of young player wanting to bowl legspin.

    The biggest jump for me (and it is due to Warne raising interest levels) is in the secondary skill department.

    Previously batsmen would add a second string to their bow by bowling medium pace or off-spin. Now Im seeing a noticable jump in the number of batsmen attempting/trying/learning legspin instead of the more 'safe' bowling styles.
    If I only just posted the above post, please wait 5 mins before replying as there is bound to be edits

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  15. #930
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    I'm interested as to how you're comparing your coaching experience now with, say, 1988 or 1989, Kev? Do you remember acutely what your fellow youths were doing back then?

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