Wisden's Cricketers of the Century

[social]

That post would be fine, if only it had "... in Australia" tacked on the end.

No perception of worldwide reality.

Totally wrong - you werent around at the time.

 

[Migara]

Leg Spin was dead until Warne came onto the scene.

Its dying again though....noone bowls leg spin.

Abdul Qadir was bowling left arm finger spin!

 

[social]

Abdul Qadir was bowling left arm finger spin!

He retired a few years before Warne came onto the scene and wasnt an automatic choice for quite a few years before that.

I played cricket in Australia, England, New Zealand, West Indies and the sub-continent during the 80s, and in virtually every country, kids wanted to bowl fast and captains had little time for encouraging spinners unless they were already very good. This was only natural because a substantial proportion of the cricketing heroes were fast bowlers and they dominated the game at the time.

Warne's emergence went a long way to changing that in many places

 

[neville cardus]

England's only wristspinners of note were Barnes and Freeman who had very short Test careers anyway. All a long, long time ago.

Barnes would be highly unimpressed at being dubbed a mere leg-spinner. I, certainly, have always taken him for a fast-medium man with unprecedented and since-unsurpassed variations.

Even more so than Kumble (whose cause you championed earlier), Barnes was "one of a kind". There has never been anyone quite like him; Kumble, on the other hand, had O'Reilly and Shahid Afridi.

If you are looking for another high-class English leggie to go with Tich, look no further than Peebles.

 

[Richard]

Oh, Barnes was even more one-of-a-kind than Murali or Kumble, beyond all question. I've always thought of him as more of a fast wristspinner than anything else, though, and if he must be classified I've always thought wristspin would be the best.

I must say, though, regarding Peebles, I've never quite seen what the fuss (not that there is a great deal) is about. Could someone explain? Had always thought that if England had a wristspinner of note after Freeman, it was Wright.

However, I imagine Kumble would be even less impressed than Barnes to see Shahid Afridi compared to him. O'Reilly, very possibly, but Afridi shares speed and that is it. None of Kumble's skill.

 

[Richard]

Totally wrong - you werent around at the time.

No, I wasn't, and I don't need to be either. There was never, ever a time in India where more concerned with seam than spin, even despite Kapil Dev and a load of average spinners.

And the number of high-calibre spinners in Pakistan in the late-1970s and 1980s suggests there was never a time there either.

West Indies and England haven't produced high-class spinners since the 1960s (when wickets were covered), New Zealand never have, and South Africa haven't since the 1950s (when wickets were coverered). Warne hasn't changed so much as a thing in any of these countries.

He might have increased interest in Australia, but as the situation post-retirement shows, that increase in interest won't translate to a multitude of good spinners.

 

[neville cardus]

Oh, Barnes was even more one-of-a-kind than Murali or Kumble, beyond all question. I've always thought of him as more of a fast wristspinner than anything else, though, and if he must be classified I've always thought wristspin would be the best.

It is an interesting analysis, completely different to that which I made ages ago, and have since upheld ever since. My staunch belief that Sydney Francis Barnes's bowling was of the fast-medium variety is based, among other things, on my knowing of very few leggies with long run-ups and off-breaks.

You are not alone, though, in believing him closer to an O'Reillyesque leggie than a McGrathesque seamer, and certainly not the first with whom I have quarrelled about it -- I usually employ the rationale that my co-arguer dubs Barnes a leggie only due to the frequent comparisons made between him and Tiger --, so perhaps it is I who have it wrong. I'll do a little digging.

I must say, though, regarding Peebles, I've never quite seen what the fuss (not that there is a great deal) is about.

His record, perhaps? There is also the formidably high regard in which one A.A. Mailey held him.

However, I imagine Kumble would be even less impressed than Barnes to see Shahid Afridi compared to him. O'Reilly, very possibly, but Afridi shares speed and that is it. None of Kumble's skill.

Of course not. I was referring to style rather than skill.

 

[social]

No, I wasn't, and I don't need to be either. There was never, ever a time in India where more concerned with seam than spin, even despite Kapil Dev and a load of average spinners.

And the number of high-calibre spinners in Pakistan in the late-1970s and 1980s suggests there was never a time there either.

West Indies and England haven't produced high-class spinners since the 1960s (when wickets were covered), New Zealand never have, and South Africa haven't since the 1950s (when wickets were coverered). Warne hasn't changed so much as a thing in any of these countries.

He might have increased interest in Australia, but as the situation post-retirement shows, that increase in interest won't translate to a multitude of good spinners.

You're totally missing the point - his emergence didnt translate into the sudden of appearance of a multitude of good spinners (basically because it's hard to do) but it dramatically increased interest in the skill worldwide

 

[Goughy]

From a coaching POV there is certainly a big jump in the number of young player wanting to bowl legspin.

The biggest jump for me (and it is due to Warne raising interest levels) is in the secondary skill department.

Previously batsmen would add a second string to their bow by bowling medium pace or off-spin. Now Im seeing a noticable jump in the number of batsmen attempting/trying/learning legspin instead of the more 'safe' bowling styles.

 

[Richard]

I'm interested as to how you're comparing your coaching experience now with, say, 1988 or 1989, Kev? Do you remember acutely what your fellow youths were doing back then?

 

[Richard]

His record, perhaps? There is also the formidably high regard in which one A.A. Mailey held him.

Well I confess I'm unaware of his deeds in domestic cricket, despite his impressive record. I know only that he had a fleeting Test career, including just 2 serious matches (New Zealand have never qualified to my mind as Test-class in the 1930s, as Bangladesh never have in the 2000s) where he did anything of note, those at the tail-end of the South Africa tour of 1930\31.

It's always occurred to me that if he had truly been the outstanding bowler, he might just have played a few more Tests. Or were there quarrells with authority involved?

 

[Richard]

You're totally missing the point - his emergence didnt translate into the sudden of appearance of a multitude of good spinners (basically because it's hard to do) but it dramatically increased interest in the skill worldwide

Interest in spin was not completely dead. That's totally impossible. There were still plenty of people attempting to bowl it pre-Warne. There were still spinners of more than a little note playing for most Test teams. There were still spinners emerging at the same time as Warne who would go on to become excellent.

Just because you never came accross bowlers who bowled it in whatever sessions you attended wherever you went, doesn't mean the art was dead or anything approaching it.

 

[Goughy]

I'm interested as to how you're comparing your coaching experience now with, say, 1988 or 1989, Kev? Do you remember acutely what your fellow youths were doing back then?

TBF, I wasnt playing cricket in 88 and 89.

The Warne effect wasnt immediate. Early 90s there were few legspinners around in England. In fact I dont think I ever played with one. All off spin or SLA. In the juniors I clearly remember one I played against but he bowled far too slowly and was ordinary.

As the next generation or 2 of youth players have come through more people are bowling it as it has become more high profile and acceptable. There was a 'stink' on legspin bowling. In England only a few progressive Captains would give leggies a bowl as they were seen as liabilities (in all fairness most of them were).

The last team I coached had 3 legspinners in it, the last adult team I played in at a good standard also played 3. Considering that growing up legspinners were rarer than Bangladesh wins, Id say there has been a big change.

Though as I pointed out. Of the 6 legspinners I mention, 4 were/are batsmen that also bowl. Good enough to take wickets and do very well but not picked primarily are specialist bowlers.

 

[neville cardus]

It's always occurred to me that if he had truly been the outstanding bowler, he might just have played a few more Tests. Or were there quarrells with authority involved?

From memory, his over-indulgence in the googly resulted in his losing his leg-break.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

The best two English leg spin bowlers that I've seen were Robin Hobbs and Ian Salisbury. One lacked penetration but could be considered a bit unlucky not to have played more Tests and the other was quite fortunate not to be arrested for jaywalking.

 

[Richard]

Salisbury was just unfortunate that he played for England (though obviously there was never a question that he should never have been selected).

He was made to look like the joke he quite patently was not.

 

[SJS]

Warne may have had an impact on more and more youngsters taking up leg spin in Australia or even England but to say that this was true of the whole world is patently incorrect.

In both India and Pakistan leg spinners were bowling before and around the time of Warne's breaking onto the scene with the kind of performances that would influence youngsters.

Abdul Qadir : Qadir had his fines series in 1987-88 in England where he took 30 wickets - his highest ever in a series. Over the next year he took a decent 25 wickets in 6 tests against Australia and West Indies before fading away. Warne made his debut just two years later.

Mushtaq Ahmed : Mushy made his debut in 1989-90 (2 years before Warne) and should be considered Qadir's torch bearer in Pakistan. Clearly between Qadir's debut in 1977 and today, Pakistan has had these two stalwarts playing international cricket for most of the time. If there are any Pakistani youngsters taking up leg spin (I dont know if there are many) how can Warne be considered the one to be credited for this.

Laxman Sivramakrishnan : This extremely talented spinner made his debut in 1982-83 (ten years before Warne) . He took 23 wickets in the series against England in 84-85. That and his subsequent exploits down under in the Championship of Champions which brought India its second title in quick succession allowed the Indian media and fans to go overboard and give God like status to yet another impressionable youngster. That was the beginning of the end of a world class leg spinners career.

Narendra Hirawani : Even as Siva was playing for India and struggling with his form, another very promising leg spinner was appearing on the horizon. Hirwani finally made his world record breaking debut against Windies in January 1988 (he was not yet 20) and took 16 wickets in the test. He took another 20 in the 3 test series against NZland and then petered off like Siva. He played his last game for India in 1997.

These are not bowlers inspired by Warne. In fact the four of them (three near contemporaries) are quite a few considering the low output of wrist spinners from the subcontinent anyway.

Leg spin has always been an 'ailing' art. Dying is too strong a word for the subcontinent. After Subhash Gupte we just had one Vaman Kumar and he too wasn't considered good enough to play much for India. So after Gupte's debut half a century ago, we havent had an "orthodox" leg spinner playing even ten tests for India except Hirwani with 17. Siva played nine.

Leg spin is probably the most difficult of all crafts in the game of cricket to master. The slow, low wickets of the sub continent make the toil to do so even less worthwhile.

As for icons helping copy-cats amongst admiring youngsters, it is true to an extent but youngsters tend to identify with icons from their own culture. Thus Indian youngsters tend to copy Indian stars and so forth.

We had a spate of young left arm spinners in India in the seventies and eighties. And now a whole lot of young medium pacers in the nineties and the current decade. For these the Bedi's, Kapil's and Srinath's are to be credited not any stars (even though more successful) from another culture. When a player looks like you (colour, built etc) you tend to identify more with them.

Gavaskar is not the only one who grew up watching Hanif Mohammad.

 

[Anil]

totally agreed...warne was an exceptional bowler but his so-called impact on the spin scene in cricket worldwide has been so overblown it's ridiculous....and as for one of the cricketers of the century, he simply is not among the five most influential cricketers of the century, forget the five greatest, a patently wrong selection...anyway, wisden's award selections have always been dubious and doesn't have much credibility outside of england so it's no biggie...

 

[Richard]

Warne may have had an impact on more and more youngsters taking up leg spin in Australia or even England but to say that this was true of the whole world is patently incorrect.

In both India and Pakistan leg spinners were bowling before and around the time of Warne's breaking onto the scene with the kind of performances that would influence youngsters.

Abdul Qadir : Qadir had his fines series in 1987-88 in England where he took 30 wickets - his highest ever in a series. Over the next year he took a decent 25 wickets in 6 tests against Australia and West Indies before fading away. Warne made his debut just two years later.

Mushtaq Ahmed : Mushy made his debut in 1989-90 (2 years before Warne) and should be considered Qadir's torch bearer in Pakistan. Clearly between Qadir's debut in 1977 and today, Pakistan has had these two stalwarts playing international cricket for most of the time. If there are any Pakistani youngsters taking up leg spin (I dont know if there are many) how can Warne be considered the one to be credited for this.

Laxman Sivramakrishnan : This extremely talented spinner made his debut in 1982-83 (ten years before Warne) . He took 23 wickets in the series against England in 84-85. That and his subsequent exploits down under in the Championship of Champions which brought India its second title in quick succession allowed the Indian media and fans to go overboard and give God like status to yet another impressionable youngster. That was the beginning of the end of a world class leg spinners career.

Narendra Hirawani : Even as Siva was playing for India and struggling with his form, another very promising leg spinner was appearing on the horizon. Hirwani finally made his world record breaking debut against Windies in January 1988 (he was not yet 20) and took 16 wickets in the test. He took another 20 in the 3 test series against NZland and then petered off like Siva. He played his last game for India in 1997.

These are not bowlers inspired by Warne. In fact the four of them (three near contemporaries) are quite a few considering the low output of wrist spinners from the subcontinent anyway.

Leg spin has always been an 'ailing' art. Dying is too strong a word for the subcontinent. After Subhash Gupte we just had one Vaman Kumar and he too wasn't considered good enough to play much for India. So after Gupte's debut half a century ago, we havent had an "orthodox" leg spinner playing even ten tests for India except Hirwani with 17. Siva played nine.

Leg spin is probably the most difficult of all crafts in the game of cricket to master. The slow, low wickets of the sub continent make the toil to do so even less worthwhile.

As for icons helping copy-cats amongst admiring youngsters, it is true to an extent but youngsters tend to identify with icons from their own culture. Thus Indian youngsters tend to copy Indian stars and so forth.

We had a spate of young left arm spinners in India in the seventies and eighties. And now a whole lot of young medium pacers in the nineties and the current decade. For these the Bedi's, Kapil's and Srinath's are to be credited not any stars (even though more successful) from another culture. When a player looks like you (colour, built etc) you tend to identify more with them.

Gavaskar is not the only one who grew up watching Hanif Mohammad.

 

[Richard]

anyway, wisden's award selections have always been dubious and doesn't have much credibility outside of england so it's no biggie...

As I said before - significance, no, credibility, yes. And the Century, unlike the Year awards, were with a global, not national, brief.

It's not as if the Cricketers Of The Century were selected solely by inside sources anyway. I'd disagree with Warne as one of the Cricketers Of The 20th Century, very much so, but it was a hugely eclectic business of choosing them.