Wisden's Cricketers of the Century

[Tom Halsey]

1) So just because Warnie bowled one great ball and our generation was fortunate enough to witness it, he should be guaranteed a place in Top 5 cricketers of the Century ?? Or the reason that he has inspired a bunch of kids in England to take up spin bowling is enough for him ro be considered as top 5 cricketers of Century ?

In that case, one should also know that no. of Kids inspired by Tendulkar is much more than those inspired by Warnie.

2) As for your logic about not many of us have watched Qadir bowl...Well How many of us have actually watched Bradman, Sobers, Hammond, Hobbs play ??

2 things here:

1) Sorry, but he’s bowled far more than 1 good ball. And don’t be so sure that Sachin has inspired more.

2) That wasn’t his point. His point was that Qadir didn’t inspire many people in his generation, because no-one saw him.

 

[a massive zebra]

Well I agree that Warnie is a much better bowler than Qadir and a better match winner, but There have been many players who have been better match winners than Warnie. So just because Warnie is the only decent Leg spinner in last 15 years shouldn't guarntee him a place in the history books.

Your logic of Qadir playing in drawn Games doesn't make any sense because in 70s-80s most of the tests used to end of as draw.

All very true.

 

[biased indian]

what is that shane warne doing in the list

even though his personnal life is not be discussed he should be a role model in every sense

and he simply failed aganist the best team that plays spin in favourable conditions

 

[Tom Halsey]

1) He has played 3 series in India.
2) The first was his debut series.
3) The second was just before his shoulder injury – which he was already feeling after the marathon summer.
4) The third was just after a broken spinning finger.

 

[Sanz]

So, lets have a look at things. Qadir averaged 32odd, despite bowling largely in Pakistan, and apart from odd spells was largely average. Of course, occasionally he was a match winner, but nowhere near Warne’s match winning skills. Another point: spin will never die out in Asia, but in countries where it most certainly will, i.e. England, etc. he inspired tons of kids to pick up a ball and flip leggies to each other in the outfield. Me for one.

Halsey, Once again just because Warnie inspired bunch of kids England to take up legspin doesn't mean that he qualifies as the top 5 cricketers of the century. You will have to come up with something better than that.

Here is an analogy, Believe it or not but it is true. IMO, Wasim Akram revived the art fast bowling especially Left Arm fast bowling and inspired millions of people and If you have not been following Indian cricket let me list the names of some of those who were inspired by him - Irfan Pathan, Zaheer Khan, Ashish Nehra. the strees of Pakistan are full of fast bowlers trying to bowl like Akram. Forget left armers even right arm bowlers were inspired by him. Just take a look at the Kabir Alis and sadiq Mahmoods ( ??) in england. And Believe Akram was no less of a match winner than Warnie. If warnie has inspired so many kids in England and Australia, then where are they ??

As far as Avg. of Qadir is concerned, look at the no. of Fifers and Tens he took in 43 tests less than Warnie.

 

[Sanz]

2 things here:
1) Sorry, but he’s bowled far more than 1 good ball.

Well Once again, you are taking it literally. I was talking about the one ball which supposedly inspire many kids in End.(who are these kids and where are they ? I hope they are working as hard as Warnie and preparing for England Call and not posting on such forums)

And don’t be so sure that Sachin has inspired more.

You have no Idea. Go to the streets in India and you will notice the Tendulkar effect (If you haven't watched Sehwagh already). Hell are we going to compare Indian Population with that of england now ?

2) That wasn’t his point. His point was that Qadir didn’t inspire many people in his generation, because no-one saw him.

Well No one say Bradman, Sobers, Hobbs, Hammond etc either then what are they doing in that list ? As for watching Qadir, speak for yourself. I watched him play and he was good may be not as good as warnie, but he was still very good.

 

[Swervy]

Well I agree that Warnie is a much better bowler than Qadir and a better match winner, but There have been many players who have been better match winners than Warnie. So just because Warnie is the only decent Leg spinner in last 15 years shouldn't guarntee him a place in the history books.

Your logic of Qadir playing in drawn Games doesn't make any sense because in 70s-80s most of the tests used to end of as draw.

yes more test were drawn back then...but which team has turned that on its head???(AUSTRALIA i hear you all shout). and which bowler has played an integral part in this almost 'result at all cost' attitude which has almost revolutionised test cricket...yes you guessed it..Shane Warne.

The guy has been instrumental in contributing to an era of test cricket which must be the most entertaining for the masses(by that i mean no draws, well hardly any) since god knows when (late 40?).For non subcontinent teams the attitude changed from spin not being all that important (and was considered a rather defensive discipline) to being a game winning art, when Warne came onto the scene...and I will challenge you to find one single bowler that has had that influence on the game in the last 50 years.

They guy not only has been the only decent leggie of the last 15 years ,but probably has been the best leg spinner since the second world war...and some would say the best ever (I think Benaud has said he is the best he has ever seen, and I think he has seen a few...and he wasnt a bad one himself).

If back in 1990 you would have said to someone that in 2004, a leg spinner from Australia would have almost 520 test wickets, you would have been laughed at...it would have been considered impossible...but he has changed the face of the game so much that that fact is easily forgotten

 

[a massive zebra]

If back in 1990 you would have said to someone that in 2004, a leg spinner from Australia would have almost 520 test wickets, you would have been laughed at...it would have been considered impossible...but he has changed the face of the game so much that that fact is easily forgotten

And you would have been even less likely to believe a spinner from Sri Lanka would have even more wickets.

 

[Swervy]

Well Once again, you are taking it literally. I was talking about the one ball which supposedly inspire many kids in End.(who are these kids and where are they ? I hope they are working as hard as Warnie and preparing for England Call and not posting on such forums)

leg spin is the hardest cricketing discipline to master,and so therefore many of the kids may have given up on it already,but he ceratinly made a thousands of people get interested in the art of leg spin all around the world (i tried to get to grips with it but failed,and have now given up as i have dodgy tendons in my wrist)(no comments please )

 

[marc71178]

So just because Warnie bowled one great ball and our generation was fortunate enough to witness it, he should be guaranteed a place in Top 5 cricketers of the Century ??

It's not just that - you underestimate the impact on World Cricket that Warne has had - it's not just one ball.

 

[Swervy]

And you would have been even less likely to believe a spinner from Sri Lanka would have even more wickets.

only for the fact that he was to be from Sri Lanka, who were pretty poor back then. It would have been more believable that an off spinner be more successful than a leg spinner over a long period of time.

The point i am trying to make is that Warne was from pace orientated Australia...back then the lack of a spinner from a non-subcontinent team wasnt considered that much of a handicap.....but it is now

 

[chicane]

yes more test were drawn back then...but which team has turned that on its head???(AUSTRALIA i hear you all shout). and which bowler has played an integral part in this almost 'result at all cost' attitude which has almost revolutionised test cricket...yes you guessed it..Shane Warne.

The guy has been instrumental in contributing to an era of test cricket which must be the most entertaining for the masses(by that i mean no draws, well hardly any) since god knows when (late 40?).For non subcontinent teams the attitude changed from spin not being all that important (and was considered a rather defensive discipline) to being a game winning art, when Warne came onto the scene...and I will challenge you to find one single bowler that has had that influence on the game in the last 50 years.

So you're saying that all of Australia's recent revolutionary sucess is solely because of Warne? I think the likes of the Waugh's, McGrath, Taylor, Slater etc contributed more to it.

They guy not only has been the only decent leggie of the last 15 years ,but probably has been the best leg spinner since the second world war...and some would say the best ever (I think Benaud has said he is the best he has ever seen, and I think he has seen a few...and he wasnt a bad one himself).

Anil Kubmle qualifies as a 'decent' leggie. I can't remember any more names but surely there were other decent leggies.

If back in 1990 you would have said to someone that in 2004, a leg spinner from Australia would have almost 520 test wickets, you would have been laughed at...it would have been considered impossible...but he has changed the face of the game so much that that fact is easily forgotten

Wasim Akram and Kapil Dev had a similar effect in the sub-continent.

 

[chicane]

yes more test were drawn back then...but which team has turned that on its head???(AUSTRALIA i hear you all shout). and which bowler has played an integral part in this almost 'result at all cost' attitude which has almost revolutionised test cricket...yes you guessed it..Shane Warne.

The guy has been instrumental in contributing to an era of test cricket which must be the most entertaining for the masses(by that i mean no draws, well hardly any) since god knows when (late 40?).For non subcontinent teams the attitude changed from spin not being all that important (and was considered a rather defensive discipline) to being a game winning art, when Warne came onto the scene...and I will challenge you to find one single bowler that has had that influence on the game in the last 50 years.

So you're saying that all of Australia's recent revolutionary sucess is solely because of Warne? I think the likes of the Waugh's, McGrath, Taylor, Slater etc contributed more to it.

They guy not only has been the only decent leggie of the last 15 years ,but probably has been the best leg spinner since the second world war...and some would say the best ever (I think Benaud has said he is the best he has ever seen, and I think he has seen a few...and he wasnt a bad one himself).

Anil Kubmle qualifies as a 'decent' leggie. I can't remember any more names but surely there were other decent leggies.

If back in 1990 you would have said to someone that in 2004, a leg spinner from Australia would have almost 520 test wickets, you would have been laughed at...it would have been considered impossible...but he has changed the face of the game so much that that fact is easily forgotten

Wasim Akram and Kapil Dev had a similar effect in the sub-continent.

 

[chicane]

sorry bout that, my net connection sux.

 

[a massive zebra]

only for the fact that he was to be from Sri Lanka, who were pretty poor back then. It would have been more believable that an off spinner be more successful than a leg spinner over a long period of time.

You are correct in saying that leg-spin is harder to master, and consequently it is harder to become a good legspinner than to become a good off-spinner. Unsurprisingly you see more good offspinners than legspinners. But it is not easier to become a world-class offspinner than it is to become a world-class legspinner, it takes just as much skill and hard work to be truely great at both. If it was easier to become a great offspinner than it was to become a great legspinner, there would have been more great offspinners in the past than great legspinners. In reality by my judgement there have been three of both. Off spin - Laker, Gibbs, Muralitharan. Leg spin - Grimmett, O'Reilly, Warne. Plus Ramadhin who bowled both varieties. It cannot be easier to become a legend at the off variety or we would have seen more of them.

 

[Swervy]

So you're saying that all of Australia's recent revolutionary sucess is solely because of Warne? I think the likes of the Waugh's, McGrath, Taylor, Slater etc contributed more to it.

you may think that..but whether you are correct is another matter...Warnes presence in a match means more to the opposition than anyone of those players you have listed...Slater...come on now..good player, but if you honestly think he has contributed more to world cricket than Warne, you dont know what you are talking about

Anil Kubmle qualifies as a 'decent' leggie. I can't remember any more names but surely there were other decent leggies.

it was actually Sanz who originally said that Warne was the only decent leggie of the last 15 years...i should have put quotes around it when i said it.Kumble is a decent bowler,but he never has been and never will be even close to Warne...the fact you cannot remember any other 'decent' leggies suggests something doesnt it

Wasim Akram and Kapil Dev had a similar effect in the sub-continent.

and what effect is that...Imran Khan was more of a pioneer in terms of fast bowling than Akram...and where does Dev really come into it when we are talking about the greatest bowlers of all time

 

[Swervy]

You are correct in saying that leg-spin is harder to master, and consequently it is harder to become a good legspinner than to become a good off-spinner. Unsurprisingly you see more good offspinners than legspinners. But it is not easier to become a world-class offspinner than it is to become a world-class legspinner, it takes just as much skill and hard work to be truely great at both. If it was easier to become a great offspinner than it was to become a great legspinner, there would have been more great offspinners in the past than great legspinners. In reality by my judgement there have been three of both. Off spin - Laker, Gibbs, Muralitharan. Leg spin - Grimmett, O'Reilly, Warne. Plus Ramadhin who bowled both varieties. It cannot be easier to become a legend at the off variety or we would have seen more of them.

this is getting of track a bit i think...yes Mr Zebra, we all know you dont think Warne was/is as good as Murali (I think this is where you are leading)...but has Murali had even 50% of an effect on world cricket (remeber, dont just look at figures) as Warne has done

 

[a massive zebra]

this is getting of track a bit i think...yes Mr Zebra, we all know you dont think Warne was/is as good as Murali (I think this is where you are leading)...but has Murali had even 50% of an effect on world cricket (remeber, dont just look at figures) as Warne has done

If Warne had not come along 1st he might have done. Warne had more affect because he was the first outstanding spinner since Bedi/Gibbs and because he was Australian. It is not Murali's fault that he came along a few years after Warne or because he is not an Aussie. As can be seen, the impact a player has on the public has as much to do with right time/right place as it does with how good they are. The 5 players selected as cricketers of the century should be the '5 Cricketers of The Century'. If you base selection on their impact on the public some players would make it purely because they came around at the right time/right place and brilliant players like Sobers/Hammond/Imran would struggle to make the elite 5 while worse players like Warne/Richards/Hobbs would get in.

 

[aussie_beater]

2 things here:

1) And don’t be so sure that Sachin has inspired more.

Well if you compare the "who inspired more" numbers, I think Sachin can beat anybody hands down in any age of cricket. A whole generation of cricketers have come up in the sub continent with Sachin as their idol. Now if you say the numbers in the sub-continent don't really count, then we can have another thread to discuss that.

 

[Sanz]

yes more test were drawn back then...but which team has turned that on its head???(AUSTRALIA i hear you all shout). and which bowler has played an integral part in this almost 'result at all cost' attitude which has almost revolutionised test cricket...yes you guessed it..Shane Warne.

Sorry mate, IMO Australian dominance actually started from 1999 and not 1992. To give Warnie credit for this will be unfair to Mark Taylor and Other Australian Cricketers. And that more results are coming into the test is not because Warnie discovered any magic or smomething but because of the aggresive batting of Australian batsmen who are scoring loads of runs that too at a faster rate and thus giving their bowlers more time to take wickets. I dont give Credit to Warnie for this. Although I feel that he has played a very important role in all this.

The guy has been instrumental in contributing to an era of test cricket which must be the most entertaining for the masses(by that i mean no draws, well hardly any) since god knows when (late 40?).For non subcontinent teams the attitude changed from spin not being all that important (and was considered a rather defensive discipline) to being a game winning art, when Warne came onto the scene...and I will challenge you to find one single bowler that has had that influence on the game in the last 50 years.

Well, once again you are giving credit to Warnie for something he has not done. There were lot of cricketers who were born in this era and contributed in making the game more interesting e.g. Lara, Akram, Waqar, Sachin, Donald. So all of them should make into the top 5 ahead of Bradman, Sobers etc ? And Please challenge me how Warnie influenced the game globally more than Wasim Akram did or How Warnie Influenced more than Sachin, Younis, Donald or Lara did ?

As for being the greatest leg spinner in last 50 years, have you heard of Subhash gupte ?? Check what Sir Gary Sobers (who has seen both Warnie and Gupte ) had to say about him.

They guy not only has been the only decent leggie of the last 15 years ,but probably has been the best leg spinner since the second world war...and some would say the best ever (I think Benaud has said he is the best he has ever seen, and I think he has seen a few...and he wasnt a bad one himself).

Isn't Benaud an Australian ?? And before you declare Warnie as the greatest Leg spinner of post WW2 era, have you heard of Subhash Gupte, The legendry leg spinner from India ?

If back in 1990 you would have said to someone that in 2004, a leg spinner from Australia would have almost 520 test wickets, you would have been laughed at...it would have been considered impossible...but he has changed the face of the game so much that that fact is easily forgotten

Well back in 70s if you would have said that an Indian fast bowler will be the highest wicket taker in test cricket, you would have been laughed at as well, so these analogies dont really work.