*** Official *** South African Domestic Season 2018/19

[StephenZA]

I wonder if we'll develop better players of spin in the coming years as a result of the improved spin stocks in SA cricket.

This has to do with the lower level cricket (school etc), many of these batsmen are the youngsters 18-22 years old that have never faced decent consistent spinner. It is also generally acknowledged that spinners tend to start learning the art and getting into the game at 25+. So I think (in general) it is difficult for the youngsters to learn until they start playing at provincial plus level against 'wily' spinners. It is why the A team tours to the sub-continent and those spin camps in India become so very important for both the batsmen and bowlers.

https://twitter.com/LocalCricketZA/status/1117526297360474112?s=19

Not really surprising though? In T20 around the world spinners are generally considered harder to attack because pace off the ball. Tahir is a classic example, attack him take big risks, but easy to milk for 4+ runs an over without any problems. Thus great at LO's sucks at Test level.

 

[MrPrez]

Not really surprising though? In T20 around the world spinners are generally considered harder to attack because pace off the ball. Tahir is a classic example, attack him take big risks, but easy to milk for 4+ runs an over without any problems. Thus great at LO's sucks at Test level.

Yeah that makes sense but the magnitude is still surprising - particularly considering our spinners are hardly world-class for the most part.

 

[SeamUp]

This has to do with the lower level cricket (school etc), many of these batsmen are the youngsters 18-22 years old that have never faced decent consistent spinner. It is also generally acknowledged that spinners tend to start learning the art and getting into the game at 25+. So I think (in general) it is difficult for the youngsters to learn until they start playing at provincial plus level against 'wily' spinners. It is why the A team tours to the sub-continent and those spin camps in India become so very important for both the batsmen and bowlers.

Not really surprising though? In T20 around the world spinners are generally considered harder to attack because pace off the ball. Tahir is a classic example, attack him take big risks, but easy to milk for 4+ runs an over without any problems. Thus great at LO's sucks at Test level.

Thought de Zorzi, Rickelton, Breetzke and van Tonder acquitted themselves very well on the emerging tour against Sri Lanka internationals considering their age.

Whilst I do believe you can get better at it when you work out your game plan. There is also a natural talent to it too. Quick feet , using the crease and just having an eye for it.

Take Breetzke v Malan

Breetzke steps back and back-foot punch the slow left-armer off his stumps that gives him options on the off-side. He even used his feet nicely. That to me is a natural ability.

Janneman Malan just jabs down at the balls the slow left-armer angles in. He looks panicked and has limited options. Bowled & LBW will be dismissals for him against spin. But he is still young enough to improve greatly to have an SA chance.

Right now you look at a Levi's problems v spin and he brutalised domestic attacks. Stiaan van Zyl loads of domestic runs but you always felt he was stuck in the crease and his stiff front leg didn't help him.

When is the line drawn to know if someone is capable of improvement v spin to the required level ?

It isn't surprising but it does show who is capable of attacking spin most successfully right now.

 

[SeamUp]

Yeah that makes sense but the magnitude is still surprising - particularly considering our spinners are hardly world-class for the most part.

I think back to the success our batsmen had in the sub-continent in the first 20 years of getting back into cricket. A mix of generations. Some involved pre-isolation and some post but always had batsmen capable of competing against spin. Would you say it was due to the spinners they faced on the domestic circuit or their own natural ability and dogged-mindedness and listening to information passed down by successful senior players and coaches ?

But even now we have Rangana Herath and newbie Sri Lankan spinners winning tests for them in SA.

 

[StephenZA]

Thought de Zorzi, Rickelton, Breetzke and van Tonder acquitted themselves very well on the emerging tour against Sri Lanka internationals considering their age.

Whilst I do believe you can get better at it when you work out your game plan. There is also a natural talent to it too. Quick feet , using the crease and just having an eye for it.

Take Breetzke v Malan

Breetzke steps back and back-foot punch the slow left-armer off his stumps that gives him options on the off-side. He even used his feet nicely. That to me is a natural ability.

Janneman Malan just jabs down at the balls the slow left-armer angles in. He looks panicked and has limited options. Bowled & LBW will be dismissals for him against spin. But he is still young enough to improve greatly to have an SA chance.

Right now you look at a Levi's problems v spin and he brutalised domestic attacks. Stiaan van Zyl loads of domestic runs but you always felt he was stuck in the crease and his stiff front leg didn't help him.

When is the line drawn to know if someone is capable of improvement v spin to the required level ?

It isn't surprising but it does show who is capable of attacking spin most successfully right now.

Natural ability is always a great starting point, but obviously natural ability and experience is better. And experience and a good game plan can beat a natural ability that does not learn. This is true for all skills in cricket. Improvement is an unknown both for the more talented and and less talented player, that is the ability to work hard and absorb the information. The important part is to try give maximum exposure and chance to learn.

I think back to the success our batsmen had in the sub-continent in the first 20 years of getting back into cricket. A mix of generations. Some involved pre-isolation and some post but always had batsmen capable of competing against spin. Would you say it was due to the spinners they faced on the domestic circuit or their own natural ability and dogged-mindedness and listening to information passed down by successful senior players and coaches ?

But even now we have Rangana Herath and newbie Sri Lankan spinners winning tests for them in SA.

I think there is a bit of nostalgia in this. Our batting record is not that great against SL or India in their home countries. Of course we had some stalwarts in Kirsten etc, but our players struggled overall. It was the class of Kallis, Amla, de Villers (maybe Smith) that we considered great players of spin. Else nobody can be considered that good. What has been disappointing is Duminy, van Zyl, de Bruyn even Rossouw poor performance against spin, never seemed to go to next level and that I`m unsure about. Hope fully the next generation does, Markram been alright against spin overall?

 

[SeamUp]

Natural ability is always a great starting point, but obviously natural ability and experience is better. And experience and a good game plan can beat a natural ability that does not learn. This is true for all skills in cricket. Improvement is an unknown both for the more talented and and less talented player, that is the ability to work hard and absorb the information. The important part is to try give maximum exposure and chance to learn.

I think there is a bit of nostalgia in this. Our batting record is not that great against SL or India in their home countries. Of course we had some stalwarts in Kirsten etc, but our players struggled overall. It was the class of Kallis, Amla, de Villers (maybe Smith) that we considered great players of spin. Else nobody can be considered that good. What has been disappointing is Duminy, van Zyl, de Bruyn even Rossouw poor performance against spin, never seemed to go to next level and that I`m unsure about. Hope fully the next generation does, Markram been alright against spin overall?

All I'm saying is. Natural ability is important and you can get better but to me there is a time where you know a batsmen won't get to a certain level. Many players we can look at who got chances due to domestic success and couldn't make it. Natural ability gives the base to kick on. Natural ability isn't just talent like you say. It's the foundation and learning point of your cricket. How you approach the game and spin. From my viewing of the game, I trust my eye to see potential on playing spin.

Not nostalgia at all. We rarely collapsed in a heap. Just look up records and watch Wessels, P.Kirsten, Cullinan, Gibbs, Rhodes, Cronje. Hell even Boucher/S.Pollock played spin well. Look how they played spin. That is important and they were up against greats so dismissals were going to happen but it is how they approached the game to formulate plans that made them successful. It is difficult to acquire that without either natural ability and or vital knowledge passed down to help you along the way. Kallis played a massive part for a young Amla/AB but Wessels/Smith/G.Kirsten's case had a lot to.do with their own dogged-mindedness. Rhodes and Cronje formulated game plans with sweeping and using their feet. P.Kirsten/Cullinan/Gibbs were natural talents and ball players.

 

[SeamUp]

Also just on the natural ability thing. Whether dogged-mindedness and spending time at the crease or a ball-player the most talented players make themselves known very early and whilst you can acquire skill through hard work over time, those guys always find it harder to get in because there is always a more talented player than them just needing to hone their skills. After all, there are only so many spots in an international team.

The above shows that natural ability doesn't have to be pretty stroke-play or aesthetically pleasing but there many types of players who just had something more over their contemporaries. Their own natural ability that either had a natural talent and or combined that with absorbing knowledge and tweaking their game.

 

[MrPrez]

Maybe it's just me but I never thought of Smith as particularly good against spin.

 

[SeamUp]

Maybe it's just me but I never thought of Smith as particularly good against spin.

Yeah, you right. He struggled at times but he also found a way many times. That has got to be one of the greatest 'natural abilities' he had and he had it early on which he formulated in his early years of playing cricket. Just had to hone it at the highest level.

I will never forget the Edgbaston innings to win us the game in the 4th innings on a pitch absolutely ragging for Panesar. Still one of my favourites if not my favourite.

And talking about. He had an amazing ability in 4th innings test run chases didn't he ?



EDIT

Talking about finding a way. Smith often spoke of playing and defending into the spin. Players are taught to play with the spin but he found his way and it worked.

 

[Stefan9]

Maybe it's just me but I never thought of Smith as particularly good against spin.

Disagree. He may not have looked pretty or scored many runs of the spinners but he had a great defensive technique against them. Used his long reach to great effective to negate them.

 

[SeamUp]

Good to see some good county performances this past round. One of my hopes is with more teams these guys will be welcomed back with open arms.

Stiaan van Zyl with his 26th FC hundred.

Harmer with a 5-for and 8 wickets in the match for Essex. I do wonder with the way he is going that he will be the 4th South African to get 1000+ FC wickets. Considering he is getting 100+ FC wickets a year and his age for a spinner. It has got to be do-able if he keeps the hunger.

 

[SeamUp]

It's all falling apart

https://citizen.co.za/sport/sport-c...ation-exercise/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

 

[SeamUp]

This too isn't great.

https://citizen.co.za/sport/south-a...n-interference/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

 

[StephenZA]

It's all falling apart

https://citizen.co.za/sport/sport-c...ation-exercise/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Not quite sure it is all falling apart.... and I am interested in what happens between the SACA and CSA. My opinion of the T20 leagues is pretty clear, I understand the purpose of the MSL is to try bring in some extra revenue for players, but don't feel like that is a real solution to the money problems. Money problems are ultimately because there is just not the public support for cricket. And the T20 that is meant to help with that has not done really anything. I agree and think that T20 has lost much of its lustre around the world.

I was interested to hear the commentators the other day talking positively about the move back to provincial cricket, and the biggest point they made that I had never really considered is how it can get people more interested in the local cricket because the provincial is closer to home as such than the franchise stuff.

 

[StephenZA]

This too isn't great.

https://citizen.co.za/sport/south-a...n-interference/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

That would just be terrible..... there is enough opposition all round that hopefully it gets squashed again.

 

[MrPrez]

This too isn't great.

https://citizen.co.za/sport/south-a...n-interference/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

This was the cause of the Langeveldt/Nel controversy, was it not? Where Langeveldt shunned his selection because it was clear to him that he was picked on race, not on merit, when compared to Nel?

I might have this slightly muddled.

Either way, it's a truly dangerous idea.

 

[StephenZA]

We say this about the veto idea.... but it is not like it is not around to a certain extent. I mean the WC 2015 Abbott/Philander incident was not great....

 

[MrPrez]

We say this about the veto idea.... but it is not like it is not around to a certain extent. I mean the WC 2015 Abbott/Philander incident was not great....

True, but being openly allowed will make these scenarios much easier to implement (and possibly more common).

Big worry I have is the possibility of Qeshile being pushed into the national team too early. Particularly when there's no need given the other young-but-slightly-older test prospects we have who should get a go first (Verreyne, Hamza etc)

 

[StephenZA]

I don't want to jump up and down to much not because it is not scary but overall at national level selection have been consistent and on merit.... biggest concern has possibly been pushing potential young black players into the team before they are ready. The franchise structure has been a bigger issues on the quota level.

 

[SeamUp]

This was the cause of the Langeveldt/Nel controversy, was it not? Where Langeveldt shunned his selection because it was clear to him that he was picked on race, not on merit, when compared to Nel?

I might have this slightly muddled.

Either way, it's a truly dangerous idea.

Yes, it was. Langers being the good man he was felt bad about it himself and he stepped away from international cricket (Kolpak) and voiced his disapproval of the decision.

Common denominator is Norman Arendse. An individual with a massive chip on his shoulder.