How do you rate W.G. Grace?

[S.Kennedy]

At test level he'd have faced Demon Spofforth and Trumble. For county cricket, Lohmann, Tom Richardson, Peel and guys like that. He was coming to the end of his career when cricket was being constituted into something recognisably modern.

The Gentlemen v Player matches by the way were the biggest matches in the English season - even bigger than test matches.

 

[a massive zebra]

At test level he'd have faced Demon Spofforth and Trumble. For county cricket, Lohmann, Tom Richardson, Peel and guys like that. He was coming to the end of his career when cricket was being constituted into something recognisably modern.

The Gentlemen v Player matches by the way were the biggest matches in the English season - even bigger than test matches.

All those guys played in the 1880s and/or 1890s when Grace was past his best. During his peak in the 1860s and 1870s, the leading bowlers would have included John Jackson, George Tarrant, Edgar Willsher, James Southerton, Tom Emmett, Alfred Shaw and the man Grace and almost everyone else of that era considered the best bowler they ever faced, George Freeman.

Test matches did not exist during Grace's peak years. Once Test matches started they certainly did receive considerably greater press coverage than Gentlemen vs Players contests, but with just one opponent available, Test matches in England only occurred every few years while Gentlemen vs Players matches were played multiple times every year.

 

[S.Kennedy]

All those guys played in the 1880s and/or 1890s when Grace was past his best. During his peak in the 1860s and 1870s, the leading bowlers would have included John Jackson, George Tarrant, Edgar Willsher, James Southerton, Tom Emmett, Alfred Shaw and the man Grace and almost everyone else of that era considered the best bowler they ever faced, George Freeman.

Test matches did not exist during Grace's peak years. Once Test matches started they certainly did receive considerably greater press coverage than Gentlemen vs Players contests, but with just one opponent available, Test matches in England only occurred every few years while Gentlemen vs Players matches occurred multiple times every year.

Well I did say, ''he was coming to the end of his career...'!

 

[jimmy101]

Pretty much all leg side shots were frowned upon pre-Grace, apparently they were considered the types of shots played by professional batsmen exclusively. I think I even read somewhere that back then if you were batting & played the ball on the leg side, the proper thing to do would be to go and retrieve the ball, return it to the bowler and apologise to him.

On a side note, imagine if 'single wicket' matches retained their popularity. How cool would it have been to see Smith vs Root? Or Benaud vs Sobers?

 

[a massive zebra]

Pretty much all leg side shots were frowned upon pre-Grace, apparently they were considered the types of shots played by professional batsmen exclusively. I think I even read somewhere that back then if you were batting & played the ball on the leg side, the proper thing to do would be to go and retrieve the ball, return it to the bowler and apologise to him.

Where on earth did you hear this? Some of the best batsmen pre Grace were famed for their leg hitting. For instance, here is a quote about George Parr, captain of the All England XI and arguably the best batsman of the 1850s, taken from the book Cricket by A.G. Steel, published in 1888:

"George Parr's leg hit, for which he was unrivalled, was the sweep to long-leg off a shortish ball that many modern players would lie back to and play off their legs. George Parr would extend his left leg straight forward, and sweeping round with a horizontal bat, send the ball very hard, and frequently along the ground. This hit has really almost totally disappeared in these days."

 

[a massive zebra]

Well I did say, ''he was coming to the end of his career...'!

You said "He was coming to the end of his career when cricket was being constituted into something recognisably modern.", not that the bowlers listed came into the game after Grace's period of dominance.

But let's not argue over semantics as I agree with your general point. Lord Hawke would have witnessed the momentous development of cricket in the last 30 years of the nineteenth century. In his forward to R.S. Holmes' book The History of Yorkshire County Cricket, published in 1904, he wrote:

"County fixtures have materially raised the standard of the game: they have made cricket very superior in quality to what it used to be."

 

[Red]

Yet you're an Australian cricket fan

Australians are the least cheat-y of all the cricket nations, imo.

 

[S.Kennedy]

Australians are the least cheat-y of all the cricket nations, imo.

Trevor Chappell was just playing bowls?

 

[fredfertang]

Trevor Chappell was just playing bowls?

That was Francis Drake - TC was just being unsportsmanlike

 

[Son Of Coco]

I guess it depends on how heavily his refusal to leave when out affected his overall stats. Maybe this is where Richard's 'First Chance Average' could truly come into its own.

 

[a massive zebra]

I guess it depends on how heavily his refusal to leave when out affected his overall stats. Maybe this is where Richard's 'First Chance Average' could truly come into its own.

This story gets blown out of all proportion and ludicrously exaggerated. It happened once, in a charity match, where the crowd had come to see him bat.

 

[a massive zebra]

Some interesting contemporary articles on W.G. Grace:

Mr. W.G. Grace, from Baily's Magazine, October 1870
Cricket Celebrities, from Bell's Life, May 1870
Mr. W.G. Grace, from Town and Country Journal, December 1873
Biography: Mr W.G. Grace at Downend, The Sydney Mail, December 1876
An Interview With Dr W.G. Grace, Pall Mall Budget, November 1884
Dr W.G. Grace: A Champion Cricketer, The Manchester Athletic News, March 1887
A Man of Today: Dr W.G. Grace, July 1897

 

[stephen]

I'm sure Burgey remembers seeing him bat. How good was he Burgey?

 

[cnerd123]

Australians are the least cheat-y of all the cricket nations, imo.

Cheating wasn't even a concept in cricket till the Australians started playing

 

[Chrish]

WG was the most dominant cricketer ever.
He was like Bradman + Walsh + Azhar

Only two other players came close are Bradman and Sobers.

These 3 are special.. You have to rate them above the rest.

Considering the changes and standards in the game, Sobers and Bradman deserved to get more points in that regard.

1.Sobers
2.Bradman
3.WG

Day light

4.Procter
5. Gavaskar / Hadlee / Sachin / Viv....

I am not comfortable with the idea that Bradman or Sobers are daylight ahead of someone like Kallis who was an ATG batsman, magnificent slip-fielder and he would have made into team like India probably based on his bowling alone. Similarly IK also brings just so much to the table; don't think any cricketer is far better than these guys.

 

[Adders]

Australians are the least cheat-y of all the cricket nations, imo.

Such an Australian thing to say.

 

[a massive zebra]

To those that think of W.G. as a fat old man with a metre long beard, these photos might come as a bit of a surprise...

Here is W.G. in 1863, aged about 15 (No, not the one you think, actually the young chap marked 12):

In the picture below, W.G. is the youngster at the extreme left in the white cap with just the beginnings of a small beard. This photo is from 1867 and W.G. would have been 18 or 19 at the time:

W.G. in 1869, aged 21:

Here is W.G. in 1872, aged 24:

So a fairly impressive beard for a 24 year old, but not quite as pronounced as the popular image of later years.

Here is W.G. in 1874, aged 25 or 26:

 

[Adders]

In the first picture, the bloke on his left (No 11)........gotta be his Dad surely??

 

[a massive zebra]

The first photo is of the Bristol and Didcot XXII that took on the All-England Eleven in August 1863. I know his three older brothers took part in the match but I don't think his dad did. It's more likely to be his oldest brother Henry Grace who was born in 1833 and would have been 30 at the time. Also his dad would have been 55 in 1863. Someone of that age is unlikely to play representative cricket and I personally don't think number 11 looks that old.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Greatest athlete with a medical degree until George Peponis.

I had to Google this bloke. Roger Banister imo