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How do you rate W.G. Grace?

How do you rank W.G. as a Cricketer?


  • Total voters
    24

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
If intimidating an umpire isn't cheating I don't know what is
If you're referring to the incident I think you're referring to (Bailey) I dunno so much. It wasn't out, but what if Viv thought it legit was? Plenty of people have extended an appeal when it's been looking like being not out where they're convinced it was. I guess only Viv knows what he actually thought.

And fwiw, if the umpire was convinced of his decision, why didnt he stick with it? You shouldnt be umpiring tests if you're prone to that sort of "intimidation".
 

fredfertang

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I just had a look for this on YouTube and found it - now you can barely see Viv on any of that footage, yet I’ve always remembered it very clearly that I saw Viv suddenly take off toward Barker waving his finger at him and shouting - maybe I’ve completely misrembered it as on the strength of what robelinda has posted you certainly can’t reach the conclusion I’ve always maintained, in which case I’d best apologise to Sir Vivian
 

OverratedSanity

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I just had a look for this on YouTube and found it - now you can barely see Viv on any of that footage, yet I’ve always remembered it very clearly that I saw Viv suddenly take off toward Barker waving his finger at him and shouting
It's obvious that's what he did.

Lara tore into Viv for that in his recent speech too.
 

Burgey

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He's no Andrew Strauss on the cheating front, but that's pretty ordinary from Viv.
 

SteveNZ

Cricketer Of The Year
It's almost cricket's version of being a hipster to suggest you'd have any idea of how to rate WG Grace.
 

SteveNZ

Cricketer Of The Year
I just had a look for this on YouTube and found it - now you can barely see Viv on any of that footage, yet I’ve always remembered it very clearly that I saw Viv suddenly take off toward Barker waving his finger at him and shouting - maybe I’ve completely misrembered it as on the strength of what robelinda has posted you certainly can’t reach the conclusion I’ve always maintained, in which case I’d best apologise to Sir Vivian
No need to apologise. I had the footage on VHS and watched it a lot of times as a kid, it was horrendous. He runs from 3rd slip yelling and hollering with the finger waving, while Curtley hardly even appeals and is slightly embarrassed by it all. But hey, no one's perfect - not like he made a career of it.
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
Well, for starters he runs from first slip between Dujon and the wickets with his arms in the air, waving his finger, not directly at the umpire. He can't have gotten very close to the umpire judging from the direction he ran.

Perhaps he legit thought it was out?

Doesn't help that Boycott carried on in the commentary.
 

Pap Finn Keighl

International Debutant
WG was the most dominant cricketer ever.
He was like Bradman + Walsh + Azhar

Only two other players came close are Bradman and Sobers.

These 3 are special.. You have to rate them above the rest.

Considering the changes and standards in the game, Sobers and Bradman deserved to get more points in that regard.

1.Sobers
2.Bradman
3.WG

Day light

4.Procter
5. Gavaskar / Hadlee / Sachin / Viv....
 

Daemon

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WG was the most dominant cricketer ever.
He was like Bradman + Walsh + Azhar

Only two other players came close are Bradman and Sobers.

These 3 are special.. You have to rate them above the rest.

Considering the changes and standards in the game, Sobers and Bradman deserved to get more points in that regard.

1.Sobers
2.Bradman
3.WG

Day light

4.Procter
5. Gavaskar / Hadlee / Sachin / Viv....
I think Kallis and Imran provided far more utility than Gavaskar, Sachin and Viv. On par with Procter at the very least surely.
 

Pap Finn Keighl

International Debutant
I think Kallis and Imran provided far more utility than Gavaskar, Sachin and Viv. On par with Procter at the very least surely.
Procter was a match winner with both ball and bat, consistently.
Imran also a candidate for my number 5, but usually i rate him around number 9 or 10.

My point was, i rate WG, Bradman and Sobers far ahead of others. If it was not for Procter, i dont have a clear winner among the rest.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
Grace cannot be analysed by comparing his career averages to modern players as the game was very different then* and in any case he continued playing for literally decades after his peak. The true class of Grace shows through when you compare his performances season by season against his leading contemporaries. When he began playing first class cricket, the other leading batsmen were Robert Carpenter, Tom Hayward and Richard Daft. Their career averages were in the mid 20s, although they all achieved multiple seasonal averages of over 30. For around ten years between approximately 1866 and 1876, Grace would routinely be the best batsman in England by an absolute mile, averaging 50-80 where the next best batsman averaged about 30, and score 5-10 centuries when nobody else managed more than 1.

Leading batsmen in 1869
Leading batsmen in 1870
Leading batsmen in 1871
Leading batsmen in 1872
Leading batsmen in 1873
Leading batsmen in 1874
Leading batsmen in 1875
Leading batsmen in 1876

Between 1866 and 1876, Grace scored 16,264 runs in first class cricket @ 56.66 with 56 centuries. Over this period, the next highest run scorer was Harry Jupp who made 11,000 runs @ 24.88 with 8 centuries and the next highest average (among regular players) was recorded by Richard Daft who made 5,379 runs @ 32.60 with 6 centuries. No one, not even Bradman, has ever achieved a greater level of dominance over their peers, and despite being a paper amateur he was very influential in developing a hardened professional mentality towards the sport.

*When W.G. Grace emerged in the 1860s:
1. Pitch preparation was in its infancy, and the quality of pitches was, by modern standards, horrific. Batsmen regularly had to put up with balls shooting along the ground or bouncing alarmingly from a good length. If I remember correctly, it was not unusual to receive three shooters in one over and then to have the next delivery sailing over your head.
2. Overarm bowling was only legalised in 1864 (the year of Grace's first class debut) and roundarm bowling continued to be more commonly used for the next couple of decades.
3. Swing bowling was non existent. It would first be effectively used by Bart King and George Hirst around the turn of the century.
4. Googlies and doosras were yet to be discovered. The googly was discovered by Bernard Bosanquet around 1900 and the doosra was discovered by Sonny Ramadhin in the 1950s before being "lost" and then rediscovered by Saqlain Mushtaq in the 1990s.
5. Lob bowling was a respected art form. Some lob bowers even represented England, the last being George Simpson-Hayward as late as 1910.
6. Most fast bowlers span the ball.
7. Footwork was looked down upon.
8. Some shots we take for granted were yet to be invented. For example, the leg glance was invented by Ranjitsinhji in the 1890s. Hook shots were very rare. The reverse sweep did not exist.
9. Hitting a full toss was considered "bad manners" and smashing a long hop was considered "immoral". Grace changed all this by unifying the elements of batting, playing forward and back, playing the bat parrallel with the front pad, smashing all balls that deserved the treatment etc.

By the end of Grace's career four decades later, top class cricket had evolved into something comparable to the modern first class game.
I remember doing an on here that suggested he did the equivalent of averaging about 127 in First Class cricket for about 15 years in today's terms. And he took a stack of wickets too. Immense.

I rate him the best ever whenever someone makes it clear they aren't just talking about Tests.
 

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
It's pretty hard to rate him though given how amateurish the sport was at the time. I have no doubt that he was exceptional but his opponents were all amateurs.
 

a massive zebra

International Captain
It's pretty hard to rate him though given how amateurish the sport was at the time. I have no doubt that he was exceptional but his opponents were all amateurs.
Not correct. Gentlemen vs Players matches, featuring the best amateurs against the best professionals, had been played regularly since the 1820s. In the fifteen years prior to the emergence of W.G., the Players (professionals) had been dominant in this event. When Grace emerged, the majority of first class cricketers, and certainly the majority of top players, were professional.
 
Last edited:

S.Kennedy

International Vice-Captain
The amateurs did not necessarily indicate amateurism per se either but eludes to the distinction between unpaid gentlemen and paid professionals.
 

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Fair enough.

Did Grace play under our over arm bowling for the majority of his career?

To rate him at all we have to understand how close the game he played was to the game current players play.

How quick were the bowlers in his day? How had the craft of batsmanship developed? What were the quality of the wickets like? What rules were in place at the time? What was bat and ball technology like at the time?

Even relatively minor rules changes can have a massive impact on the game - see the recent changes to power plays and second new balls in ODI cricket for example.

Grace would obviously have been a star of he played in the modern era but it's difficult to truly understand how good he would have been. Peer analysis can only go so far when the playing conditions are so different from today. What of he had a technical weakness against the short ball which he couldn't sort out? Or against leg spin? Or express pace? I can't imagine that he faced many express pace bowlers in the county scene (and didn't Spoffoth basically popularize fast bowling after the vast majority of Grace's career?).

All we can really say about him is that he was an exceptional 19th century cricketer and would have been exceptional today too. How exceptional I don't think we can say with much certainty.
 

Daemon

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The sport was so different though.

2. Overarm bowling was only legalised in 1864 (the year of Grace's first class debut) and roundarm bowling continued to be more commonly used for the next couple of decades.
3. Swing bowling was non existent. It would first be effectively used by Bart King and George Hirst around the turn of the century.
 

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