The Steven Smith Question

[Furball]

Only thing is he has faced just 1 ATG bowler in his whole career - steyn and 2 semi-atgs in anderson and ashwin.

Tendulkar and/or Lara faced a dozen ATG bowlers(waqar,wasim,mcgrath,gillespie,ambrose,walsh,steyn,pollock,donald,akhtar,johnson,anderson,warne,murali,kumble,bond before injury) and numerous semi-atgs(lee,saqlain,ntini,harbhajan,zaheer)

Sure, let's compare guys with 15 and 25 year careers respectively against someone who's spent 4 years at the top level. Seems reasonable.

Also, Zaheer didn't become a semi ATG until after Lara retired and Tendulkar didn't have to face him. Including Zaheer but omitting guys like Broad, Philander and Swann to name just 3 obvious examples from Smith's list is iffy to say the least.

 

[Spark]

Also there are a lot of "ATG" bowlers in that list who really aren't.

 

[TNT]

Tendulkar didnt face Ambrose until Ambrose was 35 yrs old and ready to retire. Tendulkar never faced a strong WI attack.

 

[Slifer]

Only thing is he has faced just 1 ATG bowler in his whole career - steyn and 2 semi-atgs in anderson and ashwin.

Tendulkar and/or Lara faced a dozen ATG bowlers(waqar,wasim,mcgrath,gillespie,ambrose,walsh,steyn,pollock,donald,akhtar,johnson,anderson,warne,murali,kumble,bond before injury) and numerous semi-atgs(lee,saqlain,ntini,harbhajan,zaheer)

With all due respect you're way off. Steve Smith has faced the following very good/great bowlers: Asif, Shah, Anderson, Broad, Boult, Wagner, Jadeja, Ashwin, Rabada, Steyn, Philander, Morkel, Herath, Swann, etc.

Also, just because Lara and Co MAY have faced better bowling doesn't mean they necessarily had success vs them. Lara came out distinctly second best vs Donald and the 2 Ws and so did Sachin (both averaged 30 odd vs said attacks).

Years ago, there was a comparison of the big 4 vs Lara and SRT and back then I laughed off the comparison. Needless to say, I'm not laughing anymore. And especially when it comes to Steve Smith that man is a seriously good batsman!!!

 

[Coronis]

On what planet is Zaheer Khan semi-ATG?

 

[TheJediBrah]

On what planet is Zaheer Khan semi-ATG?

Compared to other Indian fast bowlers

 

[stephen]

Compared to other Indian fast bowlers

He's probably the second best Indian fast bowler of all time.

 

[Slifer]

These are the ATG bowlers Lara/SRT faced: Donald, Pollock, Wasim, Waqar, Walsh, Ambrose, McGrath, Warne, Murali, Steyn (SRT only). Very good: de Villiers, Gillespie, Gough, Fraser, Caddick, Flintoff?, Jones, D Fleming, Refiel, Bishop, Akhtar, saqlain, Kumble, Ntini, McDermott, Macgill, Bond, etc. Looks like both Lara and Sachin faced more quality bowlers but they each played full 15+ year careers. Smith is just 60 tests in.

 

[TNT]

These are the ATG bowlers Lara/SRT faced: Donald, Pollock, Wasim, Waqar, Walsh, Ambrose, McGrath, Warne, Murali, Steyn (SRT only). Very good: de Villiers, Gillespie, Gough, Fraser, Caddick, Flintoff?, Jones, D Fleming, Refiel, Bishop, Akhtar, saqlain, Kumble, Ntini, McDermott, Macgill, Bond, etc. Looks like both Lara and Sachin faced more quality bowlers but they each played full 15+ year careers. Smith is just 60 tests in.

Its sort of hard to see where you are heading with this, Tendulkar played 20 innings against Donald and averaged 32 in those matches, same for Wasim he played 12 innings and averaged 32, he only played against Ambrose in one series when Ambrose was 35 and about to retire. What is the point of all this.

 

[srbhkshk]

Its sort of hard to see where you are heading with this, Tendulkar played 20 innings against Donald and averaged 32 in those matches, same for Wasim he played 12 innings and averaged 32, he only played against Ambrose in one series when Ambrose was 35 and about to retire. What is the point of all this.

There's nothing shocking about Tendulkar averaging lower against good bowlers, all batsman tend to average lower when playing against good bowlers, pretty sure Smith does too, the point is that if Smith ends up playing against a lesser number of good bowlers (Not arguing he will, he might/might not) then his records even if equal to Tendulkar/Lara etc. will not have as much value, he will have to have superior numbers to be considered equal to them (which he does right now, but will it last ? ).

 

[TNT]

There's nothing shocking about Tendulkar averaging lower against good bowlers, all batsman tend to average lower when playing against good bowlers, pretty sure Smith does too, the point is that if Smith ends up playing against a lesser number of good bowlers (Not arguing he will, he might/might not) then his records even if equal to Tendulkar/Lara etc. will not have as much value, he will have to have superior numbers to be considered equal to them (which he does right now, but will it last ? ).

Did you make that up yourself or did you read it somewhere.

 

[S.Kennedy]

There should be a way to discern a batsman's statistics against each individual bowler. You'd have to go back to the in-depth play-by-play score card to compile that I suppose, which would be incredibly time consuming.

 

[Slifer]

Its sort of hard to see where you are heading with this, Tendulkar played 20 innings against Donald and averaged 32 in those matches, same for Wasim he played 12 innings and averaged 32, he only played against Ambrose in one series when Ambrose was 35 and about to retire. What is the point of all this.

My post was in response to Austerlitz. The point is to show the actual ATG bowlers Lara and Sachin faced. Not some random list of bowlers many of whom weren't atg. And if u read my other post you'd see that I already highlighted Sachin and Lara short comings vs WW and Donald. I'm one if those who believe Smith is well on his way to being an atg. Smith has made runs in India and in South Africa vs Steyn Philander and Morkel that's more than good enough for me.

 

[Burgey]

Tbf Austerlitz was probably Napoleon’s finest military hour.

 

[Gob]

Tbf Austerlitz was probably Napoleon’s finest military hour.

They say never judge a man on Internet forum from his sig but my god

 

[Debris]

There should be a way to discern a batsman's statistics against each individual bowler. You'd have to go back to the in-depth play-by-play score card to compile that I suppose, which would be incredibly time consuming.

Channel 9 has this statistic and they occasionally will show it on-screen during a match. Just need to convince them to publish it on a website somewhere.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Two conflicting opinions I've heard expressed this week:


1. His success is ruining cricket because he has a horrible style and he's just compiling masses of runs on dead tracks in a near-dead era of the sport.


2. He's an inspiration. A guy with a homegrown technique who climbed from a number 8 batsman and part-time leggie, to by far the best batsman on the planet, and maybe an all time great.


... I'm not advocating either of these with this opening post. I'm just interested in how people see it.

Either of these or somewhere in the middle??

I think someone needs to come up with a new question.

 

[SteveNZ]

He's an outstandingly focused and mentally strong batsman who makes the most of every inch of his abilities. I can't see how any other conclusion can be drawn. The dead track argument is so flawed it's ridiculous, because he's scored big runs on low-scoring decks and also, no else else is averaging 60 during the same era. And who gives a **** how he looks doing it. There's obviously some sort of technical efficiency in there somewhere.

 

[Burgey]

SteveNZ summing it up really well imho. I also think people are too focused on his trigger movements which, tbf, are a bit outrageous. They sometimes get too much and he dials them back (he did that last night compared with how he was in the WC). But the thing with him and all the really good/ great players is, they might set up in a million different ways (and they do) but they all have one thing in common - at the point of release they are all in-line, their head is still and they're balanced. Nothing else matters.

The only thing, if you take batting from that very point of release, which makes TPC noticeably different to a lot of others, is his back lift comes from third slip/ gully. Which tbf is pretty unusual for a player as great as him. Apart from that, he trolls bowlers into bowling at his pads because of his trigger movements, and its ****ing hilarious because they'll get him lbw now and again, but if they bowl there he will genuinely average 200 before they do.

 

[SteveNZ]

That's part of what makes him so great in my opinion as well, he has this approach that subconsciously draws bowlers into bowling where he wants them to. Even if their plan is to persist outside off stump, I bet bowlers think 'gee, but I could just sneak one through' and get straight - which is Smith's plan. Unless you're severely dialled into your plan, you get lulled into his.

And sport has evolved to the point where we're going to get guys who look unorthodox like Smith but have the key fundamentals right and do outside that what works for them. Golf is a great example. There's two guys coming through, Matt Wolff and Viktor Hovland, who swing it differently but they get the big parts right and are mentally tough. There's no real 'one method' anymore, like there used to be. People are allowed to be individuals, unlike the sort of system that ruined a generation of bowlers in our NZ Academy back in the 90s.