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Starc v. Wagner

Teja.

Global Moderator
Who is the better test bowler right now?

They have extremely similar test stats despite starc being the fast bowler prototype and wagner being the deconstruction of the fast bowler prototype. However, I think they have a similarity in the sense that they both bowl different styles which are not traditional textbook fastbowler lengths and instead adopt more high variance/high reward styles which leads to both being unfairly called lucky despite them just being unconventional.

Starc - 162 wickets in 38 tests @ 27.54. SR of 48.4
Wagner - 144 wickets in 34 tests @ 27.87. SR of 51.7

Also haven't really watched that much of Wagner so am interested to know what people think about how good he is.
 

Beamer

International Vice-Captain
Having just watched Wagner at close quarters, I would say that Starc is the more gifted by a considerable margin but Wagner is incredibly impressive in terms of maximising his talent and his fitness. The man can run in and bowl bouncers all day. You have to respect that.

However, I would choose Starc as he is better on pitches with no pace and bounce. I think his quickness through the air would make him superior in those circumstances. For example, Wagner averages 50 in the Caribbean when playing on slow pitches adopting pretty much the same tactics as he does now. It's hard to be successful in the subcontinent, Zimbabwe and Caribbean when bowling short at 130kph. But hey, he has proven a lot of people wrong doing just that.
 

morgieb

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Having just watched Wagner at close quarters, I would say that Starc is the more gifted by a considerable margin but Wagner is incredibly impressive in terms of maximising his talent and his fitness. The man can run in and bowl bouncers all day. You have to respect that.

However, I would choose Starc as he is better on pitches with no pace and bounce. I think his quickness through the air would make him superior in those circumstances. For example, Wagner averages 50 in the Caribbean when playing on slow pitches adopting pretty much the same tactics as he does now. It's hard to be successful in the subcontinent, Zimbabwe and Caribbean when bowling short at 130kph. But hey, he has proven a lot of people wrong doing just that.
He actually hasn't done all that badly in Asia. Granted that's helped by Bangladesh admittedly, but it's not like Bangladesh's batting is all that poor, it was good enough for them to get two draws.

And in Zimbabwe he took 11 wickets @ 17, though of course the usual caveats apply about standard of opposition and what not.
 

flibbertyjibber

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I'd say Starc but to even have this discussion shows how well Wagner has done and improved in the last couple of years to become a highly thought of bowler. If NZ got Wagner, Boult and Southee all firing in the same series they will cause serious problems.

Just know it will be against us in a few months time now I said that.
 

Burgey

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Wagner is better than Starc right now. He's consistently getting wickets at a good rate. Has 36 wickets for the calendar year and has been a constant menace.

Overall, I think Starc will have a better career, but right now I don't see how you could argue he's bowling better than Wagner.
 

Bahnz

Hall of Fame Member
Starc but it's closer than you'd think at first glance. That's remarkable given Starc has the better tools in every regard - taller, faster, better seam presentation. But Wagner has those ugly virtues of his that make him a captain's dream: endurance, attitude and accuracy. He's probably the fittest fast bowler in the world, and before Pat Cummins finally managed to sellotape his spine back into one piece, Wagner was the best 3rd seamer out there.

Regarding Wagner's efforts on sub-continental type tracks, I wouldn't be too hard on him. He produced a decent effort against India last summer, took a 5fer on a typical Bangladesh sponge-pitch and his stats in the Caribbean are biased by his horrific debut series when everyone (including him) thought he was a Steyn-type swing bowler.

Starc will definitely have the better career, injury permitting. Could see him taking 400+ wickets at 25 quite easily. As good as he is, I don't think Wagner can realistically hope to compete with those kinds of numbers.
 
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Flem274*

123/5
Having just watched Wagner at close quarters, I would say that Starc is the more gifted by a considerable margin but Wagner is incredibly impressive in terms of maximising his talent and his fitness. The man can run in and bowl bouncers all day. You have to respect that.

However, I would choose Starc as he is better on pitches with no pace and bounce. I think his quickness through the air would make him superior in those circumstances. For example, Wagner averages 50 in the Caribbean when playing on slow pitches adopting pretty much the same tactics as he does now. It's hard to be successful in the subcontinent, Zimbabwe and Caribbean when bowling short at 130kph. But hey, he has proven a lot of people wrong doing just that.
wagners our dead pitch bowler haha we really missed a trick not using him in australia. we still would have lost because you can't play against the best home team in the world who have the best batsman and best opener with half fit new ball bowlers spraying it both sides of the wicket and token openers, but wagner would have provided some fire and much needed long spells.
 
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vcs

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Wagner is perfect for those NZ wickets that turn into complete roads after day 2.
 

SteveNZ

Cricketer Of The Year
I'd take Wagner for our side, I truly would. He makes up for our lack of a decent wicket-taking spinner by being excellent when it's flat, and in the fourth innings.
 

OverratedSanity

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Wagner's really good but Starc has so much more potential and has similar figures despite not even hitting his peak yet. Does anyone see Wagner actually getting better from here? I certainly don't, while Starc, barring injury has only just begun hitting his stride.
 

vcs

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Wagner's really good but Starc has so much more potential and has similar figures despite not even hitting his peak yet. Does anyone see Wagner actually getting better from here? I certainly don't, while Starc, barring injury has only just begun hitting his stride.
Yup. Wagner's done admirably with his skill-set, but taking wickets through full-pitched bowling and swing will always be a more sustainable strategy than relying on short pitched bowling from around the wicket. And Starc is also pretty good with the short stuff.
 

SteveNZ

Cricketer Of The Year
Wagner's really good but Starc has so much more potential and has similar figures despite not even hitting his peak yet. Does anyone see Wagner actually getting better from here? I certainly don't, while Starc, barring injury has only just begun hitting his stride.
We play not a hell of a lot of Test cricket from here, so that can't help...but he's not a rhythm bowler. He's just an effort bowler. Teams have known for 18 months what he brings to the table but he still consistently gets wickets, so can't see any issues there in terms of teams working him out. Can only see injury negating him, fatigue shouldn't be an issue (Wagner I'm talking here obviously).

Starc is clearly the more skilful bowler but some of our fans get that mixed up when comparing oh I don't know, say Southee and Wagner.
 

Daemon

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Yeah WI came back strongly against Wagner once they figured out the dude is just going to bounce them non stop. He's sort of been in the background in his career so far pounding away but if the spotlight goes on him and batsmen see him as more of a threat and prepare for what's coming life could get a bit more difficult.
 

SteveNZ

Cricketer Of The Year
They're not trying if they didn't know Wagner was going to bang it in non-stop from day one.

Being bounced consistently is not comfortable for anyone who's not Ponting or Richards. The fact that Wagner sustains the energy and the plans to do it, yeah he's going to go for big runs for stints - as he did this series - but he's also going to get guys out who can't be arsed ducking for too long. And he picks apart any short ball weakness - which in the modern era of more protection and limited overs, are prevalent. You can tell a guy Wagner is going to bounce him 5 balls out of six and that's no guarantee he'll get through it. It's his version of fourth stump channel and preying on patience.

I back him to keep being as effective as he's been for the last two years.
 

Flem274*

123/5
Yeah WI came back strongly against Wagner once they figured out the dude is just going to bounce them non stop. He's sort of been in the background in his career so far pounding away but if the spotlight goes on him and batsmen see him as more of a threat and prepare for what's coming life could get a bit more difficult.
they got away with swinging hard for a while but then he broke a blokes arm and got some wickets tbf
 

Dan

Hall of Fame Member
I'd take Wagner for our side, I truly would. He makes up for our lack of a decent wicket-taking spinner by being excellent when it's flat, and in the fourth innings.
Much better balance fit than Starc if we're taking Southee and Boult as givens, yeah.
 

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