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Thread: ICC Champions Trophy 2004

  1. #31
    International Captain Loony BoB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sehwag309
    The US may never adopt cricket as many argue (read somwhere ) that cricket doesn't offer the same physical exercise that their sport has.

    Although I feel competiton between countries is more exciting than just "Yanks V/S Mets", or "bugs bunny v/s daffodils or something".

    I mean look at American Football, its like WWF with a ball which looks like baked bread.
    Not enough physical exercise? Ha! Okay, let's have a look at this. You have Baseball, aka American Cricket. Count the average length a baseball batter walks/runs and then count the average of a cricket batsman. Don't even get me started on the bowler vs. pitcher scenario. As for American Football, rugby and rugby league have that hands down. Although the 'mericans do have a lot of weight to carry around with all that padding, the amount of physical resiliance and endurance you need to survive a rugby game is a tad over the good ol' US way of things.

    The only thing that Americans need is not exercise but 'bang'. They need to have less restrictions, too, when it comes to baseball - why bowl a ball when you can just throw the damned thing? And American Football has the option of every single guy on the field smacking into each other at the same time, which is more fun for them to watch than the one man dodging his way through fifteen other players and then scoring a brilliant rugby try. Again, also, the lack of restrictions - you can make forward passes.

    EDIT: Although I must admit that sometimes I wish F1GP had less restrictions. It would be neat to see motorsport without restrictions because then it really would be showing off the fastest in the world rather than the fastest in the restricted world.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by LankanPrince
    That is very true, but how come the England cricket team isn't more balanced. There is a lot of talented Asian and Black players in the UK county cricket scene but when they do get picked they get only a couple of matches. The England selectors should persevere with these players more like they have done with Steve Harmison and Andrew Flintoff, both who had disappointing starts to their international career but have gradually made their mark. If the selectors fail to persevere with a base of Asian and Black players, the England team will not realise the talent of players such as Vikram Solanki, Kabir Ali and Alex Tudor.
    Yes, Nasser Hussain's imminent 100th Test is a big demonstration of how England never persist with players of Asian or African ancestry, isn't it?

    And you can find plenty of people who will wax lyrical about the idiocy of the England selectors in giving Mark Ramprakash game after game after game in which to fail.

    You can point to Devon Malcolm being mistreated by the selectors, specifically Ray Illingworthless, but Angus Fraser can make exactly the same complaint, and he's as white as white can be.

    It's no good just asserting that because India have a got a brilliant team full of Asian players, England will have similar success if they too pick Asian players. There's no particular reason to suppose that they are bringing up a bunch of Indians in Bradford and Southall rather than a bunch of Bangladeshis, and I think England can do without trying to emulate the Bangles right now. And if the present Zimbabwean team is an example of how talented Black players are, I don't really want much of that particular pie either.

    It's actually a volume thing, more than anything else.

    I just had a quick flip through the 1994 Playfair. Overseas players apart, there were then no more than a dozen black/Asian players with county contracts. The average county now has two or three, with one of them a first-team regular and the other two (probably aged about 20) knocking on the door with useful performances in the seconds.

    And the talk of the future generation of players makes as much mention of Sajid Mahmood and Bilal Shafayat as it does of people like Alex Gidman or that Cook fellow whose first name escapes me just now.

    Cheers,

    Mike

  3. #33
    Cricket Web Staff Member / Global Moderator Neil Pickup's Avatar
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  4. #34
    Eyes not spreadsheets marc71178's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by THE G-TRAIN
    I think you guys are underrating sri lanka...And dare i say overrating England. Sri Lanka are very unpredictable, but generally do well in these tournaments, and definately have the players to go all the way.

    If it were held in the Subcontinent.

    Late English Summer conditions aren't quite the same though...
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  5. #35
    Hall of Fame Member luckyeddie's Avatar
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    Following on from badgerhair's point, although there weren't many coloured players in the county game a decade or more ago, many that did make it to county standard went on to play for England.

    Now what that proves, I haven't a clue. It depends which side of the fence you sit, I suppose. Some might argue that the relative rarity was indicative of grass-roots institutional racism, others could point out that the ones that made it showed real character and as they ended up representing their country then that was an argument AGAINST the game in England being prejudiced.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by luckyeddie
    Following on from badgerhair's point, although there weren't many coloured players in the county game a decade or more ago, many that did make it to county standard went on to play for England.

    Now what that proves, I haven't a clue. It depends which side of the fence you sit, I suppose. Some might argue that the relative rarity was indicative of grass-roots institutional racism, others could point out that the ones that made it showed real character and as they ended up representing their country then that was an argument AGAINST the game in England being prejudiced.
    I don't know what it proves either, because it could be a number of things.

    One point to ponder is that the proportion of non-white county players who went on to play for England is rather similar to the proportion of Oxbridge graduates who went on to play county cricket and got picked for England, which is much, much higher than the proportion of county cricketers arriving from other sources. My guess on the Oxbridge front is that someone who can get themselves a degree from Cambridge is not going to bother with cricket as a professional career unless they are very good indeed and have genuine chances of making it to international level - merchant banking pays a great deal more than cricket does unless you are a star.

    The Asian and Caribbean "communities" tend to involve children paying a great deal of attention to what their parents tell them, and there is oodles of anecdotal evidence of promising teenagers effectively giving up the game in order to get involved with the family business or qualify as a doctor or accountant because that's what daddy told them to do. So it would take a lot of determination to take up cricket as a career.

    Now, there's no doubt in my mind that the paucity of non-white players 15 years ago was down to low-level racism, but that it was not something peculiar to cricket. 15 years ago, it would have been a major issue that there were members of the Cabinet who are gay, who have smoked marijuana, or are black, but now it passes with little comment. And I remember musing with a friend in 1998 that it was a mark of progress that the next England cricket captain would have a brown skin (Hussain and Ratracash being the only visible candidates) and that the only debate was about which of them would do better, not what colour their skin was - and there would have been endless comment about their skin colour only 10 years earlier.

    It's a mistake to think that cricket can be far in advance of, or far behind, the society in which it is embedded (except in times of great upheaval such as in Zimbabwe now or South Africa some years ago). Britain has moved far enough in the last 20 years that what you can do now matters far more than what your skin colour is (although you'd have to have an excessively optimistic view to assert that there is no colour prejudice at all).

    So we'll be able to tell that Britain has become truly integrated when the proportion of "Asian" county cricketers who get picked for England is as low as the proportion of "white" county cricketers who get picked.

    Cheers,

    Mike

  7. #37
    State Captain krkode's Avatar
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    Maybe the proportion of Asian cricketers being picked should correspond (and does correspond?) to the proportion of Asian people in England.

    Who of Asian descent represents England now? Hussain is the only one for now. That's 1 out of, say, 15 players. A solid 7%.

    And what is the racial make-up of England? Are 7% Asians or are asians actually overrepresented in the English side?

  8. #38
    Cricket Web Staff Member / Global Moderator Neil Pickup's Avatar
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    It's about 4-5m out of 60m (including Scotland, Wales and NI) - around 7%.

    However, cricket is a sport that's more commonly played in Asian 'communities' than white ones - so that's a flawed measure.

  9. #39
    Hall of Fame Member luckyeddie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by krkode
    Maybe the proportion of Asian cricketers being picked should correspond (and does correspond?) to the proportion of Asian people in England.

    Who of Asian descent represents England now? Hussain is the only one for now. That's 1 out of, say, 15 players. A solid 7%.

    And what is the racial make-up of England? Are 7% Asians or are asians actually overrepresented in the English side?
    Here's the breakdown by ethnicity for the UK:

    2001 census figures

    As you can tell, there should be one non-white in the English team - he should have one Indian leg, one Pakistani leg (below the knee), one Bangladeshi hand, fingers from other Asian countries (mixed), etc etc.

  10. #40
    Cricket Spectator Albion's Avatar
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    Funnily enough people have been saying who they think might win.

    But has anyone else thought that the tournament might be a complete wash-out?

    I mean - scheduling cricket for late September in England!

  11. #41
    International Regular twctopcat's Avatar
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    Global warming should help us out with this one, lovely long English summers. Tres bashing fours for fun on lovely flat english tracks ala 5th test vs SA last year, can't wait.
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  12. #42
    International Captain Loony BoB's Avatar
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    It'd be kind of funny if every single match but one got washed out, and in that match some second rate team pulled off a win. Or if every match in the whole thing got washed out. I mean, anything's possible.

  13. #43
    Eyes not spreadsheets marc71178's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by krkode
    Maybe the proportion of Asian cricketers being picked should correspond (and does correspond?) to the proportion of Asian people in England.
    A flawed figure.

    It doesn't correspond to the number of women or over 50's etc.

    Proportions are not representative IMO.

  14. #44
    International Coach biased indian's Avatar
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    i dont remember the groups

    but for me its aussie india sri lanka S.A semi
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  15. #45
    State Captain krkode's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marc71178
    A flawed figure.

    It doesn't correspond to the number of women or over 50's etc.

    Proportions are not representative IMO.
    Okay, makes sense.

    I was merely analogizing with how college's determine representation in the United States. And you're right, it doesn't quite work out that way.

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