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England players and selection discussion thread
- Thread starter Bijed
- Start date
Curran will end up being a batsman who bowls in international cricket and defo has a future in that case...Woakes will play more when Jimmy calls it a day, as he is seemed as the successor to him with the new ball etc, and i think Leach will become no1 spinner soon enough
Borges
International Regular
Isn't Leach already the number one spinner?
mr_mister
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Hes played quite a lot of FC games and hasn't tonned up yet. His batting may be limited
andmark
International Captain
That changes by the series. Sometimes it'll be Leach, other times it'll be Moeen and God help us it's occasionally Rashid.
theegyptian
International Vice-Captain
I'd agree that he hasn't shown that he should be a frontline batsman.
What I would say about the first class hundred thing was that he debuted at number 11 as a 17 year old, and has gradually moved up the order since. He still really hasn't batted much above 8 in his career. So that does limit his chances of scoring hundreds and the last 9 months he's been playing for England anyway. He is still only 20. I certainly wouldn't rule him out from batting higher in the future.
theegyptian
International Vice-Captain
3 keepers seems like a luxury we should do without. Especially if Foakes is batting 8, and Bairstow and Buttler haven't proved they are capable top order bats. Buttler and Bairstow aren't as good as FOakes as a keeper, but they past muster at international level as keepers imo. Play another batsman or bowler instead of Foakes imo.
Top of the batting order is obviously the biggest issue. Burns is going to get targeted wide of offstump and at his head in the future, but has shown enough to keep his spot into the summer.
There will be at least one (and maybe two) spot at the top of the order open. There's a real opportunity for those not in the England ODI side to make a case this coming summer. There's 12 rounds of county games before the ashes start, with most in the middle of the summer. As is the way with our top order, anyone who scores a lot of runs from the top of the order will come in for serious consideration.
Bairstow isn't going to be working on his top order game. First he goes to the IPL, and then the CWC. He'll likely have 0 championship games before heading into the four day test against Ireland, and then straight into the ashes.
Roy misses the IPL but probably only has 1 fc game before the Ireland test. He has a fair amount of backing which I find remarkable. Personally I feel the last thing England need is another flaky attacking bat. If they like him he should replace Buttler, Bairstow, Ali or Stokes, not join them in the side.
Top of the batting order is obviously the biggest issue. Burns is going to get targeted wide of offstump and at his head in the future, but has shown enough to keep his spot into the summer.
There will be at least one (and maybe two) spot at the top of the order open. There's a real opportunity for those not in the England ODI side to make a case this coming summer. There's 12 rounds of county games before the ashes start, with most in the middle of the summer. As is the way with our top order, anyone who scores a lot of runs from the top of the order will come in for serious consideration.
Bairstow isn't going to be working on his top order game. First he goes to the IPL, and then the CWC. He'll likely have 0 championship games before heading into the four day test against Ireland, and then straight into the ashes.
Roy misses the IPL but probably only has 1 fc game before the Ireland test. He has a fair amount of backing which I find remarkable. Personally I feel the last thing England need is another flaky attacking bat. If they like him he should replace Buttler, Bairstow, Ali or Stokes, not join them in the side.
Woodster
International Captain
It would be a shame if Foakes is a victim of neither Buttler or Bairstow being able to secure a top order batting spot but I do think that is the way they will go. I don’t really have a problem with having three keepers in the side if they are three of the best seven batsmen in county cricket. You could argue they are, the problem being the two not keeping are probably number 5/6 bats rather than top five and with Stokes the same it makes it a bit of a squeeze getting them all in.
I do agree that the clamour to include Roy, and I do think he is very talented, does fly in the face of what we actually require, especially if Bairstow retains the number three spot. Would much rather see Nick Browne from Essex come in to occupy the other openers spot should he start the season well with Essex.
theegyptian
International Vice-Captain
a top order bat. failing that they could just pick another bowler like last summer. Woakes, Leach, Stone, Archer. They'd have been better in these two tests with Woakes instead of Foakes.
I don't think Foakes had that tag on him. He's batted exclusively in the middle order, half the time on one of the flatter wickets in England. They've got **** ton of better options in that part of the order already. They need top order options. Him batting 8 doesn't exactly suggest they see him as the next batsman off the rank.
Jarquis
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I disagree - at the end of the NZ series there were very few blokes who would have been ahead of him in the pecking order at that point. Batting 5 and keeping wicket while averaging the best part of 45 isn't to be sniffed at. Early season runs from Pope put him to the head of the queue but Foakes has been in and around squads for a while now and they were looking for a way to get him in.
I don't really know who the '****' ton of better options are to bat in those spots are either. Unless you mean the blokes who are already in the side, who then need to be replaced by somebody who isn't likely to be better than Foakes anyway and that's before you factor in the downgrade with the gloves.
wpdavid
Hall of Fame Member
I suspect we all know that this is the effectively same discussion that we've had ever since Strauss retired. Does anyone know how many top 5 batsmen have been tried and found wanting since the golden era of 2010/11? Must be around 25 now. At various times Bairstow, Ali, Stokes and Buttler have all been suggested as ripe for moving up the order and all have been found wanting outside of their best positions at 6 or 7. I may even have read somewhere that Curran should be shunted up the order, and now it's Foakes. I'm not trying to be smarter than anyone, here, just sounding off in despair at the state of our talent pool. And that's before we wonder who's going to replace Broad and Anderson, or even operate as a 3rd seamer alongside them, as Stokes and Curran are really 4th and 5th seamers respectively
Call me crazy but this would be my test XI
1.Burns
2.Denly
3.S.Curran
4.Root
5.Foakes (wk)
6.Bairstow
7.Woakes
8.Stone
9.Broad
10.Anderson (c)
11.Leach
Denly gets a go only had one test....Curann will eventually be a batsman who bowls, no one else any good, give him a go, can't do any worse, Root loses captaincy to get his batting mojo back...Foakes has to bat 5 he's good enough...Bairstow and Stokes no better than 6 and 7 in tests....Stone if fit, if not then who ever is fit gets 4th seamer spot, with Woakes there not important.///Jimmy captains to get side back o ntrack, and Leach is the spinner, offers control and wicket taking ability
1.Burns
2.Denly
3.S.Curran
4.Root
5.Foakes (wk)
6.Bairstow
7.Woakes
8.Stone
9.Broad
10.Anderson (c)
11.Leach
Denly gets a go only had one test....Curann will eventually be a batsman who bowls, no one else any good, give him a go, can't do any worse, Root loses captaincy to get his batting mojo back...Foakes has to bat 5 he's good enough...Bairstow and Stokes no better than 6 and 7 in tests....Stone if fit, if not then who ever is fit gets 4th seamer spot, with Woakes there not important.///Jimmy captains to get side back o ntrack, and Leach is the spinner, offers control and wicket taking ability
Groundking
International Debutant
Since Strauss has retired we've played 25 different batters in the top 5, of which 4 have retired (KP, Cook, Trott and Bell) and only Root and Cook have averaged 40 in the top 5 since Strauss retired.
Who is there in the CC that's young (<24 years old) that bats top 4? Is there anybody promising that does that?
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wpdavid
Hall of Fame Member
So only Root out of the 21 others has been good enough to play in the top 5. Not the greatest success rate.
Groundking
International Debutant
Yup and the next best lad is Gary Ballance
Followed by Hameed and Robson, the only other 2 to average more than 30 @32 and 30.58 respectively.
theegyptian
International Vice-Captain
He's only really moved upto 5 in the last year or so iirc. Before that he has mainly been at 6, with a little at 7. His figures are good though. And yes there may not have been many players scoring more runs that him but it doesn't really matter because the position he can bat there are lots of options currently - who offer more for the team imo. It's at the top of the order they need players. Just because they don't have anyone obvious doesn't mean they can do without top order players. They can't just fill the side with lower middle order bats.
For me it's just the easiest way to declutter some of the middler order. Get rid of one of the keepers.
theegyptian
International Vice-Captain
There are quite a few counties that basically don't even have 2 semi established openers right now in their squads. First division Yorkshire just have Lyth, Hampshire have no-one really (weatherley will probably open with someone), Somerset have Trescothick. A good opener is like golddust in county cricket. Conditions are tough, and techniques and mentalities are average. Everyone wants to bat in the middle order.
It's interesting to see the success Pujara and Olivier have had since the end of the county season in test cricket. Pujara averaged 14 in 12 knocks last year for Yorkshire and has struggled previously iirc, since then had great success with India in test cricket. Olivier - 30 wickets at an average of 27, isn't bad then compare it to his teammate at Derbyshire, Palladino, who bowls 75mph medium pacers and who took 51 wickets at less than 20. These aren't isolated cases. Some overseas players do well but others are really struggling. Obvious home conditions are a factor but I'd suggest it's more than that - a lot of the games are being played where match conditions aren't conducive to moulding international test cricketers.
If someone like Pujara can't score runs it suggests it's very hard out there for young english batsman. There are going to be some guys mentally capable of playing international cricket with decent techniques who possibly aren't able to draw attention to themselves because conditions are so tough.